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PCN for i think being in a bus lane / ambulance only section
Kelevra
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 17:11
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Hello All

The driver went to visit a relative in a hospital he had never been to before, i believe that while he was trying to navigate where to go, he went into what was either a bus only lane, or the PCN has been received as for about 10 seconds he was in a part that was for AMBULANCES ONLY. The driver obviously realised his mistake and quickly left the area, went back around onto the main road and back into the hospital and found the correct parking part.

Ive attached all the pages of the PCN

Is this something that can be fought? Or is this just a case of driver made a mistake, so they will just have to suck it up and pay.

https://ibb.co/pbWpJtr
https://ibb.co/7jryZrR
https://ibb.co/gSXJWFw
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post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 17:11
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stamfordman
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 17:29
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Other cases referenced:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...121566&st=0
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 18:22
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This council must win muppet of the year. They have corrected the time in which to pay from service to notice, but have gone back to offering 21 days for the reduced payment. It should be 14

This is worth a fight.

start saving the cost of a cup of coffee a week from now. By the time an appeal is heard and you would have to pay if you lost, you will save most of the penalty and certainly all of the amount over the discounted amount. And if you win you can have a nice treat


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Kelevra
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 18:30
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 18:22) *
This council must win muppet of the year. They have corrected the time in which to pay from service to notice, but have gone back to offering 21 days for the reduced payment. It should be 14

This is worth a fight.

start saving the cost of a cup of coffee a week from now. By the time an appeal is heard and you would have to pay if you lost, you will save most of the penalty and certainly all of the amount over the discounted amount. And if you win you can have a nice treat


Hi, i must admit, i don't really know what you mean as until like 2 weeks ago, i had never had to deal with parking tickets before - They have offered 21 days from 03/01/19? If they should have offered 14, wouldn't this mean they have given me an extra week on-top of what they should have?
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 19:01
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QUOTE (Kelevra @ Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 18:30) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 18:22) *
This council must win muppet of the year. They have corrected the time in which to pay from service to notice, but have gone back to offering 21 days for the reduced payment. It should be 14

This is worth a fight.

start saving the cost of a cup of coffee a week from now. By the time an appeal is heard and you would have to pay if you lost, you will save most of the penalty and certainly all of the amount over the discounted amount. And if you win you can have a nice treat


Hi, i must admit, i don't really know what you mean as until like 2 weeks ago, i had never had to deal with parking tickets before - They have offered 21 days from 03/01/19? If they should have offered 14, wouldn't this mean they have given me an extra week on-top of what they should have?


Have they? What would you do if after 20 days you decide to pay but they want the full amount. The regulations say they only have to offer the discount for 14 days. They also state what a PCN must say and this one don't.


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cp8759
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 21:05
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On top of that, the PCN does not include the mandatory suffix wording that the London Councils require for contravention 33.


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Kelevra
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 23:00
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Hello, so what should i be doing as an appeal? Is there somewhere i can find a good template? Also, is it worth posting the video and explaining the drivers side, that they were just lost and trying to navigate into the hospital?, couldnt have been there for more than 10-20 seconds.
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cp8759
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 23:09
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Post the video, one of us will draft you something when we're feeling creative.


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Kelevra
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:03
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Video

Hi,

This is the video they have of the driver.

Funny enough, i still genuinely don't know what exactly the driver did wrong? Till now i am still assuming it was because he stumbled into the ambulance bay - thats where the driver was emerging from
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 21:32
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He drove through a bus gate


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Kelevra
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 08:45
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Hi all

Has anyone got any idea of what kind of response I should be sending? Should I be focusing on the contravention itself? Or technicalities within their letter to me?
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cp8759
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 17:42
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Subject to the views of others, I'm not sure the contravention can realistically be contested, given the signage: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5702179,0...6384!8i8192

With that in mind, I'm tempted to say we should challenge the PCN purely on technical grounds, i.e. the wrong discount period (21 days instead of 14) and the missing contravention suffix (it should say on the PCN what sort of vehicles the route is restricted to)


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 17:51
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 17:42) *
Subject to the views of others, I'm not sure the contravention can realistically be contested, given the signage: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5702179,0...6384!8i8192

With that in mind, I'm tempted to say we should challenge the PCN purely on technical grounds, i.e. the wrong discount period (21 days instead of 14) and the missing contravention suffix (it should say on the PCN what sort of vehicles the route is restricted to)


+1 the signage has been found adequate the last few times it has been argued


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cp8759
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 18:28
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Draft reps:
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Ground 1: The amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case: The discount period given on the PCN is wrong

Section 4(8) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides as follows:

"(8)A penalty charge notice under this section must—
(a)state—
...
(iv) that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;
"

The Penalty Charge Notice issued by the enforcement authority instead stated that "If the penalty charge is paid not later than the last day of the period of 21 days beginning with the date of this notice, the penalty charge will be reduced by 50%", there is a substantive difference between a period of 14 days and a period of 21 days. In Papjinder Gahir v London Borough of Havering (case reference 2180111742) your attempt to resist an appeal brought on this ground proved futile as it was held that the PCN was a nullity. It was also held that the variance being in the motorist's favour was of no relevance, for the reasons identified by the High Court in London Borough of Barnet Council, R (on the application of) v The Parking Adjudicator [2006] EWHC 2357 (Admin).

Since the Papjinder Gahir case you have improved your PCN template by correctly stating that the payment periods run from the date of the PCN, rather than from the date of service of the PCN, but the duration of the discount period is still wrongly described as being 21 days long rather than 14. In light of this, the PCN is a nullity and the only penalty that may be demanded is zero.

Ground 2: The amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case because the PCN fails to adequately particularise the alleged wrongdoing:

Section 4(8) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides that:

"(8) A penalty charge notice under this section must—
(a) state—
(i) the grounds on which the council or, as the case may be, Transport for London believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;
"

The PCN simply states the contravention as "Using a route restricted to certain vehicles", but it does not specify to what vehicles the route is restricted. As such it is impossible to establish from the PCN the exact nature of what is alleged. The wording to be used on PCNs is provided for in the contravention code list version 6.7.6 published by the London Councils; for contravention code 33 it is specified that "Code specific suffixes apply" and the following suffix wording is provided:

buses only; buses and cycles only; buses cycles and taxis only; buses and taxis only; local buses only; local buses and cycles only; local buses, cycles and taxis only; local buses and taxis only; tramcars and local buses only; tramcars only; tramcars and buses only.

No suffix wording is included on the PCN; the signs that the driver is alleged to have contravened are also not visible on the PCN due to the positioning of the camera. As such the exact nature of the alleged contravention is not sufficiently particularised on the face of the PCN. It follows that in the circumstances of this case, the only penalty that may be demanded is nil, as such your demand for £130 is excessive.


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