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[NIP Wizard] 1st ever speeding ticket - HELP!
Lynxy
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 00:41
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - September 2018
Date of the NIP: - 31 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 31 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A374 Shapters Road heading into Gdynia Way, Plymouth, Devon
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Lease Car
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I do not remember this even happening as I cannot recall this location but I did hire this lease car and I was at Plymouth for work.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 00:40:03 +0000

Hey guys, i hope you can help me with this.
I read in a few sites, that if the NIP surpasses 28 days, then I can appeal the offence?

See the pages -->
Page 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/4k62maumqpdj99s/t...000225.jpg?dl=0
Page 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/pbyjrw1zx0qp6qq/t...000254.jpg?dl=0
you can clearly see the date of issue and the date of offence are over a month apart.

Can someone clarify?

Thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by Lynxy: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 00:47
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post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 00:41
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Jlc
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 06:38
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No, it’s only the 1st NIP to the registered keeper has a time requirement of 14 days. Subsequent ones (like yours) has no such limit, other than 6 months to prosecute.

Regardless, the s172 request (to name the driver) does not have this limit and must be responded to.

One option is to ask for photos to assist in the driver identification- they often supply but it doesn’t stop the 28 day clock.

In terms of identifying the driver, you appear to have been the person keeping the vehicle? If so, you are expected to use reasonable diligence to identify who was driving. So start with any work records, who was insured and any other records. Failing to identify the driver will see you in court should to want to defend on the basis you did not know who was driving and could not identify them with the aforementioned diligence. If convicted, it’s 6 points and a large fine.

Do you know what the alleged speed/limit were?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 06:49


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 07:24
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If you think logically, the first NIP has to be served in the registered keeper within 14 days, that person has 28 days to respond, so even if there was a requirement (there isn’t, that’s for the addressee to respond) it would be a illogical in the extreme for it to be 28 days.

Have you got a link to any of those sites where it says 28 days as I strongly suspect you’ve misread them, or perhaps it relates to council PCNs.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Lynxy
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 08:37
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QUOTE
Do you know what the alleged speed/limit were?


I was doing a 41 in a 30.

QUOTE
Have you got a link to any of those sites where it says 28 days as I strongly suspect you’ve misread them, or perhaps it relates to council PCNs.


Section 1 of Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/1

Requirement of warning etc. of prosecutions for certain offences.
(1)Subject to section 2 of this Act, [F1a person shall not be convicted of an offence to which this section applies unless]—
(a)he was warned at the time the offence was committed that the question of prosecuting him for some one or other of the offences to which this section applies would be taken into consideration, or
(b)within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a summons (or, in Scotland, a complaint) for the offence was served on him, or
©within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was—
(i)in the case of an offence under section 28 or 29 of the M1Road Traffic Act 1988 (cycling offences), served on him,
(ii)in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.

Let me know your thoughts.
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BaggieBoy
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 08:47
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QUOTE (Lynxy @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 09:37) *
Let me know your thoughts.

That link says 14 days not 28. And that it only applies to the RK, which you are not. So unless you have evidence that original NIP was not served in 14 days the timing is none issue.
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Jlc
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 08:57
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QUOTE (Lynxy @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 09:37) *
Let me know your thoughts.

Nothing changes unless you've missed out something vital. The driver must be nominated or the matter will go to court. (For which you would have to show you did not know who was driving and that after reasonable diligence could not identify them)

That excess will see a course offer if the driver hasn't done one within the last 3 years. Otherwise it's a fixed penalty offer (3 points £100).


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 08:58
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QUOTE
(ii) in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.



--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Lynxy
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 09:00
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Ok, thanks everyone for their input.
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Jlc
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 09:37
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Are you still unsure who was driving?

It appears to be a SPECS (average speed) system there - see here. They do not flash, nor necessarily obvious.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 09:37


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 09:44
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QUOTE (Lynxy @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 01:41) *
I did hire this lease car and I was at Plymouth for work.

Who else do you believe might have been driving?


--------------------
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Lynxy
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 07:33
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 10:44) *
QUOTE (Lynxy @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 01:41) *
I did hire this lease car and I was at Plymouth for work.

Who else do you believe might have been driving?


Other work colleague but I was driving on this day so it must have been me. Humbug.

QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 10:37) *
Are you still unsure who was driving?

It appears to be a SPECS (average speed) system there - see here. They do not flash, nor necessarily obvious.


Can I ask for evidence to see who was driving on the day to confirm?
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AntonyMMM
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 07:38
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You can ask for a photo to"aid identification of the driver" if you wish - but don't use the word evidence.

The photo is to identify the vehicle, so may or may not show the driver at all.
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peterguk
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 07:43
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QUOTE (Lynxy @ Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 08:33) *
I was driving on this day so it must have been me.


In which case, you need to simply name yourself as the driver.

QUOTE (Lynxy @ Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 08:33) *
Can I ask for evidence to see who was driving on the day to confirm?


You can ask for photos to assist in identification of the driver. They may supply them, but are not obliged to. And if they do, the photos may not show the driver. The 28 day clock to return the S.172 does not stop ticking.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 07:48


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anoncardriver
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 08:55
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QUOTE (Lynxy @ Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 01:41) *
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - September 2018
Date of the NIP: - 31 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 31 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A374 Shapters Road heading into Gdynia Way, Plymouth, Devon
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Lease Car
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I do not remember this even happening as I cannot recall this location but I did hire this lease car and I was at Plymouth for work.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 00:40:03 +0000

Hey guys, i hope you can help me with this.
I read in a few sites, that if the NIP surpasses 28 days, then I can appeal the offence?

See the pages -->
Page 1 https://www.dropbox.com/s/4k62maumqpdj99s/t...000225.jpg?dl=0
Page 2 https://www.dropbox.com/s/pbyjrw1zx0qp6qq/t...000254.jpg?dl=0
you can clearly see the date of issue and the date of offence are over a month apart.

Can someone clarify?

Thanks in advance.


I believe the purpose of the 14 day rule is so that you are able to recall the incident and be able to offer a defence.
If the NIP was outside the time frame, and you don't recall what your speed was, then it sounds like you have a solid argument.
In fact, I recall reading a case exactly like this some time back. Search the web, cite the case, and win!
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peterguk
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 08:57
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QUOTE (anoncardriver @ Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 09:55) *
I believe the purpose of the 14 day rule is so that you are able to recall the incident and be able to offer a defence.
If the NIP was outside the time frame, and you don't recall what your speed was, then it sounds like you have a solid argument.
In fact, I recall reading a case exactly like this some time back. Search the web, cite the case, and win!


Onlt the first NIP in the chain is subject to the 14 day rule.

In any case, OP has already said he was the driver at the time.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 09:10


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Jlc
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 09:00
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No, that is not a solid argument.

An actual late NIP is, eg Beckham.

Many NIP’s arrive outside 14 days due to the driver not being the RK, i.e. leased, company, hired.

The law requires reasonable diligence upon receiving the request. Being quite some time after the offence may assist a s172 defence but is no silver bullet.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 09:01


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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anoncardriver
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 10:12
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 10:00) *
No, that is not a solid argument.

An actual late NIP is, eg Beckham.

Many NIP’s arrive outside 14 days due to the driver not being the RK, i.e. leased, company, hired.

The law requires reasonable diligence upon receiving the request. Being quite some time after the offence may assist a s172 defence but is no silver bullet.


Does it take 31 days to identify a driver's address? Sheesh, no wonder there are so many criminals on our streets! wink.gif
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BaggieBoy
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 10:17
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We have no idea how long the lease company took before responding to the original request. It could have been weeks.
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Jlc
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 10:19
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Given each request has 28 days to respond, along with processing time it’s not unusual for requests to arrive 2-4 months afterwards.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 10:19
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QUOTE (anoncardriver @ Tue, 23 Oct 2018 - 11:12) *
Does it take 31 days to identify a driver's address? Sheesh, no wonder there are so many criminals on our streets! wink.gif



The recipient of a S.172 has 28 days to reply. He/she has every right to use as many of those days as they wish.


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