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Ealing Council - Ticket for parking in suspended CPZ - Sign put up after parking
ATurner
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 15:42
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Hi, I'll try and keep this concise but give all relevant details! Hoping that there is something I can do about this ticket. I'll give bullet points in order as best as I can remember.

- Gas works needed to be done on the whole street
- Letter sent out re dates and the fact that parking suspensions will be inevitable*
- Works started, working their way from one end of the street to the next
- My car was fine outside the house (in the middle of the road) for at least a week
- The roadworks got close to where the car was parked, so next time I drove I parked it at the end of the street further from the roadworks. Unsurprisingly there weren't many free spaces, but I chose the furthest one I could from the current works. I would estimate it was 3-4 spaces down from where works were happening. This was likely Monday, but may have been Tuesday.
- Next time I used the car was a few days later on a Friday( 21st), the car had a ticket on it and was near 'parking suspension' signs**.
- The ticket is from 08:47

*I cannot find a copy of this letter to know EXACTLY what it said, but I may be able to get one from a neighbour.
** the signs were both sides of the car, but not within easy sight of the actual parking space - likely due to no poles or trees in the vicinity to attach them to.

Now for some back story. I don't drive much as I can get around easier by bike, when using the bike or walking I use the back of the property to enter and leave. The car was parked in front of the property, so I would only check it periodically when needing to drive (every 2-3 days usually). I had checked on Wednesday (19th) that it was still ok and there were no signs up, although my car was at that point next to the end of the current roadworks. There were no available spaces elsewhere to move it further away so I left it, meaning to check the next day. I was told by one of the gas workers that the signs were put up Thursday late afternoon, he may be misremembering but even if he's a day out they would have been put up Wednesday late afternoon at the earliest.

Ealing's own guideline leaflet ( https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/1700...parking%201.pdf ) states (on page 31):
QUOTE
What happens if I park in a suspended bay? Yellow suspension signs are usually put up three days before the suspension is due to take place and indicate the dates, times and location that the suspension is in force. Any vehicles found to have parked in the suspended bays during the times stated on the signs may be issued with a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).


Possibly of interest, in the online pictures of evidence there is no picture of the car in the same shot as a suspension sign. This may be because it wasn't possible to get both in the same shot!

Thanks in advance for any feedback, I can post any pictures if required!

Alex.

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post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 15:42
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ATurner
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 15:04
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QUOTE (Dwain @ Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 13:29) *
Does the fact that tyhe pictures of the contrevetion were taken during the day, and the photo of the sign prohibiting parking was obviously taken at another time not have any bearing?

I thought similar, if provable that means they're tampering with the picture timestamps....could be arguable as an artifact of the flash though? A bit shaky as the foundation of a case IMO.

RE similar cases and being parked before suspension notices are put up - is there any mitigating factor (on their side) from the general notice that work was ongoing on the street?

Also, how would I ask them for more information as the only way to contact them on the site where the ticket is shown is to 'make a challenge' which I have been told I am unable to do again. Should I just ignore them until the next step goes ahead - and if so, would anyone want to take a more educated guess than me on % chance of a win?

Thanks!
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hcandersen
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 16:40
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Does the fact that tyhe pictures of the contrevetion were taken during the day, and the photo of the sign prohibiting parking was obviously taken at another time not have any bearing?

IMO, it depends.

Are you saying the sign in the photo was not in situ at the time of the contravention and by implication was erected and photographed after the time of the contravention?

Or is this a photo of the sign which was in place?
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ATurner
post Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 16:01
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 17:40) *
Does the fact that tyhe pictures of the contrevetion were taken during the day, and the photo of the sign prohibiting parking was obviously taken at another time not have any bearing?

IMO, it depends.

Are you saying the sign in the photo was not in situ at the time of the contravention and by implication was erected and photographed after the time of the contravention?

Or is this a photo of the sign which was in place?

The sign almost certainly was in place, but that photo looks suspicious to me. I don't think it's the strongest part of a case to appeal though.

I've got a few more days before the 'discount' ends, anyone want to advise on chances here?

QUOTE (ATurner @ Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 16:04) *
Should I just ignore them until the next step goes ahead - and if so, would anyone want to take a more educated guess than me on % chance of a win?

Thanks!


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ATurner
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 12:09
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Well, my hope that they might just not bother with it if it went unpaid as the case wasn't strong enough was overly optimistic - the attached turned up in the post a few days ago.

Any suggestions as to next steps? As far as I can see my only option is to make a challenge, is this the same as I've done at the previous step and been politely (?) told not to do again?

It doesn't seem as though there is any way to request details from them of things like when the notices were put up, if my car was parked there when they put the notices up etc etc.

There also doesn't seem to be any mention of any adjudication as mentioned earlier in the thread, just threats that the cost will go up again. I really can't afford to pay the current amount, and definitely don't want to pay the equivalent of 3 parking tickets for this, so am hoping there is some light at the end of the tunnel and I haven't made a mistake in not submitting to the original extortion attempt!

Other shots of the latest letter after deleting some previous photos to make space....
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

 
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cp8759
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 15:36
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QUOTE (ATurner @ Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 12:09) *
There also doesn't seem to be any mention of any adjudication as mentioned earlier in the thread, just threats that the cost will go up again.

The last page clearly says that if they reject your representations, "you must either pay pay the penalty charge or appeal in writing against the decision to an independent adjudicator..."

You'd be better off uploading images to imgur.com and posting a link or using the BB codes, rather than deleting older pictures. The space on here is very limited so using an external site is advisable.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 15:36


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ATurner
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 15:41
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 16:36) *
QUOTE (ATurner @ Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 12:09) *
There also doesn't seem to be any mention of any adjudication as mentioned earlier in the thread, just threats that the cost will go up again.

The last page clearly says that if they reject your representations, "you must either pay pay the penalty charge or appeal in writing against the decision to an independent adjudicator..."

Ok, am still not sure if this is a new level of challenge to the initial ticket or the same kind of thing I've already done? If the latter, do I just wait or send the same thing again? unsure.gif

QUOTE
You'd be better off uploading images to imgur.com and posting a link or using the BB codes, rather than deleting older pictures. The space on here is very limited so using an external site is advisable.

Will do in future, I just deleted some early ones that weren't crucial to the thread this time.

Thanks!
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cp8759
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 15:56
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I took the liberty of checking the council photos and this shot might be a bit of a problem:

I think at this point the only thing you can do is challenge on the basis that the sign was not there at the time when you parked, and ask them to confirm at what time the signs were erected.

QUOTE (ATurner @ Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 15:41) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 16:36) *
QUOTE (ATurner @ Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 12:09) *
There also doesn't seem to be any mention of any adjudication as mentioned earlier in the thread, just threats that the cost will go up again.

The last page clearly says that if they reject your representations, "you must either pay pay the penalty charge or appeal in writing against the decision to an independent adjudicator..."

Ok, am still not sure if this is a new level of challenge to the initial ticket or the same kind of thing I've already done? If the latter, do I just wait or send the same thing again? unsure.gif

Well you cannot ignore the NtO or you'll end up with bailiffs at the door, you must either pay or challenge. As the discount isn't available, you might as well challenge, they will often re-offer the discount at that point. Providing you don't miss any deadlines, the penalty cannot increase above its current level.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 15:55


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ATurner
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 16:50
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 16:56) *
I took the liberty of checking the council photos and this shot might be a bit of a problem:

Not sure how that one is worse than any other - I'm not disputing that there were signs up when the ticket was issued, but they weren't there when I parked. The council putting them up (according to the best recollection of a neighbour) Thursday evening and giving me a ticket Friday morning is the thing I'm not best pleased about.

QUOTE
Well you cannot ignore the NtO or you'll end up with bailiffs at the door, you must either pay or challenge. As the discount isn't available, you might as well challenge, they will often re-offer the discount at that point. Providing you don't miss any deadlines, the penalty cannot increase above its current level.

Reading again it seems the challenge procedure is by email this time, shall I send the exact same challenge? They rejected it last time on the basis that I should have checked the vehicle on a daily basis, which is ridiculous and against their own guideline of three days notice as a minimum. The issue as far as I can see is that there is nothing I can find that says that the 3 days notice is legally required.

Of course, if there's any obvious loopholes (incorrect code on the offense was mentioned earlier?) I'm willing to consider appealing on that basis, as it is less subjective....

Thanks again!
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cp8759
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 16:57
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I'm inclined to say challenge on the same basis. They say you need to check the vehicle once a day, which is rubbish, but even if it were true, once a day means once every 24 hours. Even if you had been checking on the car once a day at 10 am, you would have still got the PCN. If they put the signs up Thursday night, they're effectively saying you need to check the car every 12 hours at most to ensure you don't commit a contravention, which no adjudicator is going to accept, not even in London.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 16:58


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ATurner
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 16:59
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Ok great, will do. I should clarify that I personally checked the car Wednesday afternoon and there were no signs, the Thursday evening info is from a neighbour who may be mis-remembering, but even is he's a day out it would be less than 48 hours notice.
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cp8759
post Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 17:02
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QUOTE (ATurner @ Thu, 1 Nov 2018 - 16:59) *
Ok great, will do. I should clarify that I personally checked the car Wednesday afternoon and there were no signs, the Thursday evening info is from a neighbour who may be mis-remembering, but even is he's a day out it would be less than 48 hours notice.

Get a witness statement from the neighbour if you can.


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hcandersen
post Fri, 2 Nov 2018 - 09:59
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Cp posted that their photo might be a problem.

I agree, but not for you.

Having now looked at GSV, the layout and the authority's problem are clear: the parking places are continuous. Therefore somehow they have to mark sequential areas as they progress down the street.

They are NOT limited to static traffic signs, their duty is to mark clearly, not merely ensure that traffic signs comply with TSRGD.

In this case the sign behind you doesn't help the authority unless they can show the one in front of you. If you are in a suspended area then the limits of that area must be signed, not just one end!

IMO, they should use a combination of cones/pavement markings.
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ATurner
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 10:47
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Ok, so I haven't put in an appeal yet - is there anything better than the original content that I could send this time?
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 11:36
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OP-- you've had difficulty with this part of the Council's letter----"we reserve the right to disregard any further correspondence related to the notice before the NTO is served".

Wait for others, but I regard this as a procedural impropriety. The Council have no reserved rights in this matter and cannot disregard anything that is put forward prior to the NTO.

The Regulations are very precise:-

The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007

3(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i)those representations will be considered
;

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The Council can set aside any further correspondence but they cannot state that it will be disregarded or that they have any power to disregard.

Mick

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hcandersen
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 11:56
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Which does not mean that you can return to the metaphorical well with the same arguments day after day and expect a response. IMO, consideration means exactly that, and once asked and answered, that's it.

However, their statement is too broad, you may submit new points.

On the substantive issue, where is any photographic evidence that you were within a suspended area whose limits were clearly marked by at least a suspension notice on the next traffic sign ahead of your vehicle? IMO, you cannot have ANY part of a suspended area which is not bracketed in this way because you are entitled to look ahead of your car and rely on what you see.
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ATurner
post Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 14:02
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 12:56) *
On the substantive issue, where is any photographic evidence that you were within a suspended area whose limits were clearly marked by at least a suspension notice on the next traffic sign ahead of your vehicle? IMO, you cannot have ANY part of a suspended area which is not bracketed in this way because you are entitled to look ahead of your car and rely on what you see.

The only other image from the rear end of the car is more diagonal, so doesn't show the pavement on the same side of the road. There weren't any signs for a large area anyway though, as there are no lamp posts or trees they could attach them to.

However, the signs themselves specify which house numbers the suspension refers to.

This is all academic from my point of view when parking there though, as there were no signs at all at that point! biggrin.gif
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ATurner
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:10
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Am hoping to challenge again via email at this next stage. Here is a rough draft of what I was planning to send - is this enough/reasonable? Should I attach the original full explanation re when I parked/checked the car etc again in this email?

QUOTE
I would like to challenge PCN number EA93486667.

As previously detailed, when I parked the vehicle the area was not suspended and a ticket was issued before I was able to move the car to another suitable parking space.

I would like to request details of the time and date the suspension notices were put up, and if you have records of the vehicles parked in the area at this time.


Thanks in advance!
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