Illegal Registration Plate, VRM not conforming |
Illegal Registration Plate, VRM not conforming |
Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 16:44
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 16 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,906 |
Good Afternoon,
I have recently received a traffic offence report for the reason of offence code 400, VRM not conforming. Let me explain the situation first:
I then receive a telling off about my license plate as the other officer looks for more issues (finds none). I get told to get in the car and present my ID. When I question the officer as to why I'm getting the ticket, I get the response: "VRM not conforming". I ask him to be more specific, he says - I have no stamps with BS, postcodes, etc. I tell him to check again, he comes back telling me they're not visible. I tell him they don't have to be. He then adds onto that telling me the material is not reflective (it is, I have photos of the light bouncing straight into my camera), the letters are not smooth (they are pressed), and the position is not in the middle. I have not argued about the letters as I wasn't sure. I checked the rules, I can't see anything prohibiting it. Position, I argued, mentioning the plates on Alfa Romeo. His reason was 'it's legal because it's standard, your car doesn't come like that'. I'm not satisfied and waiting for correspondence to come from police now. What should my course of action be? I can send photographs if required. Thanks! This post has been edited by creesteN: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 16:46 |
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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 16:44
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Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 00:39
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#201
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,572 Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Member No.: 36,528 |
It seems not to be available online but there are references to it such as:
DVLA Bulletin 21/11 (21/2011) (partly reproduced below) Misrepresented Number Plates Please be aware that the Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency ( DVLA ) has been dealing with an increased number of enquiries dealing with raised lettering or metal number plates. DVLA,s position is that there is nothing in the British Standard ( BS AU 145d) or in the Road Vehicles ( Display of Registration Marks ) Regulations 2001 that specifically excludes raised lettering or metal plates. Although pressed metal plates are not excluded, the plate must not be treated in any way which impairs its recognition by a camera and film or any device. The Font must not be altered from the specified Charles Wright Font. -------------------- |
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Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 07:04
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#202
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Member Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 18 Sep 2017 Member No.: 94,099 |
One of the issues with raised characters is not the font being incorrect but that the material used to create the font is reflective, some are retroreflectice and both are proscribed.
The characters that fake the look of 3D text are also proscribed because they are made of characters that have more than one stroke, i.e. they have black and grey and sometimes no colour sections within the character. This also makes the characters less recognisable to a camera, especially illuminated IR because the characters appear with less of the character being non-reflective. Raised characters are allowed but they must be non-reflective and they often are not. |
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Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 08:14
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#203
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Member Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 16 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,906 |
One of the issues with raised characters is not the font being incorrect but that the material used to create the font is reflective, some are retroreflectice and both are proscribed. The characters that fake the look of 3D text are also proscribed because they are made of characters that have more than one stroke, i.e. they have black and grey and sometimes no colour sections within the character. This also makes the characters less recognisable to a camera, especially illuminated IR because the characters appear with less of the character being non-reflective. Raised characters are allowed but they must be non-reflective and they often are not. I have a message from the supplier saying "we don't make our registration plates that way. The letters are not reflective.". And I also have a photo where the plate bounces light back but not the lettering. |
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Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 08:28
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#204
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Member Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 18 Sep 2017 Member No.: 94,099 |
One of the issues with raised characters is not the font being incorrect but that the material used to create the font is reflective, some are retroreflectice and both are proscribed. The characters that fake the look of 3D text are also proscribed because they are made of characters that have more than one stroke, i.e. they have black and grey and sometimes no colour sections within the character. This also makes the characters less recognisable to a camera, especially illuminated IR because the characters appear with less of the character being non-reflective. Raised characters are allowed but they must be non-reflective and they often are not. I have a message from the supplier saying "we don't make our registration plates that way. The letters are not reflective.". And I also have a photo where the plate bounces light back but not the lettering. That's good then. Did you ever put a picture of your plate on? Part of it would hide your ID of course. |
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Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 09:26
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#205
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Member Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Member No.: 83,881 |
Are you in possession of the officers statement and can you post it on here (with personal details redacted)?
I may have missed something but was the issue not originally to do with the location of your number plate rather than its construction? -------------------- If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
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Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 15:31
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#206
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Member Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 16 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,906 |
One of the issues with raised characters is not the font being incorrect but that the material used to create the font is reflective, some are retroreflectice and both are proscribed. The characters that fake the look of 3D text are also proscribed because they are made of characters that have more than one stroke, i.e. they have black and grey and sometimes no colour sections within the character. This also makes the characters less recognisable to a camera, especially illuminated IR because the characters appear with less of the character being non-reflective. Raised characters are allowed but they must be non-reflective and they often are not. I have a message from the supplier saying "we don't make our registration plates that way. The letters are not reflective.". And I also have a photo where the plate bounces light back but not the lettering. That's good then. Did you ever put a picture of your plate on? Part of it would hide your ID of course. If you mean the photograph where the light bounces, I can do so as soon as I get back home tonight. I'll do it ASAP. Are you in possession of the officers statement and can you post it on here (with personal details redacted)? I may have missed something but was the issue not originally to do with the location of your number plate rather than its construction? "On ... at ... a vehicle, namely ... VRM ..., on a road namely, ...., when the registration mark required to be fixed on the front and rear of the vehicle failed to comply with the Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 in that the plate was pressed metal with raised lettering on both the front and rear of the vehicle, no supporting documentation to suggest plate has been tested against British standard BS AU 145d. Contrary to section 59(1) of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994." This was written in the case on my court summons. I have some other documents somewhere at home with other statements, witness statement (second officer), and descriptions. They all seem to mention the same thing. The issue was never with the location. It was mainly the fact that it is "non-standard", as the officer said in many locations and that the letters are "raised". This post has been edited by creesteN: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 15:34 |
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Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 15:50
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#207
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Yup, location was discussed but isn't the 'issue'.
Looking back through the thread the plate does have BS145 mark but wasn't the officer's 'liking'? -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 18:27
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#208
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Member Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 16 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,906 |
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Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 11:20
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#209
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Member Group: Members Posts: 634 Joined: 8 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,778 |
Have you asked the supplier to provide evidence for your defence, say a sworn statement or even turn up in person to defend their firm's reputation?
How much was the plate? If it was over £100 and you paid on a credit. Are I'd be asking oth the credit card company and supplier to be defending their product and would be reminding them that if they have sold me an illegal plate that I would be expecting all children she s incurred their be reimbursed by them, i.e. Fine and increased insurance premiums |
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Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 11:40
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#210
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
If it was over £100 and you paid on a credit. Are I'd be asking oth the credit card company and supplier to be defending their product and would be reminding them that if they have sold me an illegal plate that I would be expecting all children she s incurred their be reimbursed by them, i.e. Fine and increased insurance premiums That's funny -------------------- |
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Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 11:44
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#211
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Member Group: Members Posts: 634 Joined: 8 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,778 |
Fantastic predictive text / auto correct!
But agreed that is very funny. |
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Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 19:36
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#212
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Member Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 16 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,906 |
Have you asked the supplier to provide evidence for your defence, say a sworn statement or even turn up in person to defend their firm's reputation? How much was the plate? If it was over £100 and you paid on a credit. Are I'd be asking oth the credit card company and supplier to be defending their product and would be reminding them that if they have sold me an illegal plate that I would be expecting all children she s incurred their be reimbursed by them, i.e. Fine and increased insurance premiums I have initially! Apart from a message of along the lines of "they are made to be legal", I received no more. It was about £14, not £100. This post has been edited by creesteN: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 19:38 |
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Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 21:19
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#213
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Member Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 16 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,906 |
Another response by the supplier, unfortunately this is all I got:
QUOTE Hello, these plates are reflective and are road legal. I have a few questions. I would appreciate your help.
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Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 22:13
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#214
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Member Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 22 Jul 2017 Member No.: 93,141 |
Another response by the supplier, unfortunately this is all I got: QUOTE Hello, these plates are reflective and are road legal. I have a few questions. I would appreciate your help.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...207546/V796.pdf And DVLA Bulletin 21/11 (21/2011) (partly reproduced below) Misrepresented Number Plates Please be aware that the Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency ( DVLA ) has been dealing with an increased number of enquiries dealing with raised lettering or metal number plates. DVLA,s position is that there is nothing in the British Standard ( BS AU 145d) or in the Road Vehicles ( Display of Registration Marks ) Regulations 2001 that specifically excludes raised lettering or metal plates. Although pressed metal plates are not excluded, the plate must not be treated in any way which impairs its recognition by a camera and film or any device. The Font must not be altered from the specified Charles Wright Font. BS AU145d In the specification it states in the Scope : NOTE. retroreflecting number plates may be manufactured from any material which performs satisfactory in service, providing the requirements of this standard are met. Sec 3.6 - retroreflecting number plate A plate exhibiting the registration mark of a vehicle in which only the background to the registration mark consists of retroreflecting material. Note:- ANY MATERIAL |
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Thu, 19 Oct 2017 - 00:15
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#215
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Member Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 16 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,906 |
Where is the source of this DVLA Bulletin? I know the text, it's just that I can't find it anywhere online.
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Thu, 19 Oct 2017 - 01:19
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#216
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,572 Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Member No.: 36,528 |
Where is the source of this DVLA Bulletin? I know the text, it's just that I can't find it anywhere online. I looked and cannot find it, just many examples of it being quoted. That suggests to me that it is not available from DVLA. -------------------- |
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Thu, 19 Oct 2017 - 09:41
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#217
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Member Group: Members Posts: 294 Joined: 8 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,341 |
Where is the source of this DVLA Bulletin? I know the text, it's just that I can't find it anywhere online. I looked and cannot find it, just many examples of it being quoted. That suggests to me that it is not available from DVLA. It seems you are not alone in enquiring, See an earlier thread on here and also the thumbnail attachment on the subsequent post 17 Bill |
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Thu, 19 Oct 2017 - 21:24
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#218
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Member Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 16 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,906 |
Where is the source of this DVLA Bulletin? I know the text, it's just that I can't find it anywhere online. I looked and cannot find it, just many examples of it being quoted. That suggests to me that it is not available from DVLA. It seems you are not alone in enquiring, See an earlier thread on here and also the thumbnail attachment on the subsequent post 17 Bill Thank you so much!!!!!!!!!!!! Can anyone give me an insight into how the court case looks like? How do I address people? When do I say what? How much law / how much personal talking, etc. |
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Fri, 20 Oct 2017 - 07:46
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#219
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Member Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 18 Sep 2017 Member No.: 94,099 |
Where is the source of this DVLA Bulletin? I know the text, it's just that I can't find it anywhere online. I looked and cannot find it, just many examples of it being quoted. That suggests to me that it is not available from DVLA. It seems you are not alone in enquiring, See an earlier thread on here and also the thumbnail attachment on the subsequent post 17 Bill Thank you so much!!!!!!!!!!!! Can anyone give me an insight into how the court case looks like? How do I address people? When do I say what? How much law / how much personal talking, etc. There will be a bench of 3 magistrates or a district judge. There will be the legal advisor/clerk of court in front of them. A prosecutor and you if you are not represented. The prosecutor opens the case then calls for the witnesses. They will present evidence that you should already have been given 7 days or more beforehand. When the prosecution Witness has finished their evidence you can ask that Witness some questions about what they have just evidenced. The prosecotor can re-examine any points you have raised with the Witness. All witnesses finished, prosecution will close. You get to give your evidence and you can be questioned. You get to close your case. Decision is made. Call the magistrates or DJ sir or madam. The decision is returned with reasons then the penalty is decided. You get to speak if you want to make representations about what the penalty should be if you haven’t put in a written statement of means but you should put that in anyway. |
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Fri, 20 Oct 2017 - 07:55
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#220
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
The decision is returned with reasons then the penalty is decided. If you’re convicted! Obviously no penalty if you’re not. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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