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NOTICE OF APPOINTMENT AS DEBT COLLECTORS
sandygarg
post Sat, 2 Sep 2017 - 19:13
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Dear Sir,

I was shocked to received a letter from the debt collector company with total outstanding amount as 392.00£ sad.gif, the details of this letter is as follows

"
Client: London borough of ealing
Contravention date: 01/12/2015
VRM: ******* (this is the VRM of my vehicle)
Location: The broadway/ herbert Road Southall 818

We have been instructed by the London borough of ealing to recover the above parking charges which remain outstanding.

PLEASE DO NOT IGNORE THIS LETTER. FURTHER ACTION MAY BE TAKEN AT CONSIDERABLE COST TO YOU IF THE DEBT IS NOT CLEARED.
"

the letter is just one page without any further details of the PCN and contravention date is 08/12/2015. I had never received any other letter from London Borough Of Ealing and I am totally confused what shall I do now. The debt company is asking a heft charge of 392 and there is no way I can pay that, even my car is even less than that.

Please advise what shall I do, how can I challenge this letter and PCN etc.

Many Thanks
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Neil B
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 00:09
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Sandy. Hang in there.
You've actually done very well answering the questions: We see lots of people ask, then panic when they realise a bit of effort is required.
We never hear from again but the end result for them can only be bad.
So well done for sticking with it.

Just those checks with TEC tomorrow (and Council if you can get through - but don't spend too long bothering with them)
and we are at the point we can tell you what you need to do.
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 22:02) *
Apply to make out of time statutory declarations to TEC.

Let's explain.

If a postal PCN is issued and the Council don't get a reply or payment, they increase the penalty by 50%
and serve Charge Certificate giving you 14 further days to pay.
In your case, PCN £130 +50% = £195.
If they still don't get payment then they register the debt with TEC, costing and adding £7 (in your older case).
They can then serve a final notice, the Order for Recovery, now for the total £202, giving you another 21 days to pay.

BUT the law recognises that letters/notices sometimes don't get delivered or reach the right person.
So, the OfR also allows people to make a Statutory Declaration - that the PCN was never received.
You can only do that in those same 21 days.
If done, a new PCN would be issued and you can pay or contest. It would be £65 at discount.
This is what we are aiming for.

The problem is, some people, like yourself, don't receive anything - because, unless they know otherwise at
the time, the Council can only use the address DVLA give them.
So without that final notice, the OfR, you had no opportunity to make the Statutory Declaration in that
21 days. This is called 'the normally permitted time'

So what you are about to do is to ask the Court TEC to file that Statutory Declaration late, i.e. after the
normally permitted time.
and this next bit is very important -
You need to ask only that and explain only why you could not do so earlier

We will help.
You may not realise it but you have a strong case, despite apparently not updating with DVLA promptly.
Based on the dates we have so far, it is highly unlikely that the PCNs could ever have gone to your
new address. Even if you had updated DVLA in December 2015 they would not have processed + the
issue of Christmas post + staff holidays at both DVLA and Council.

I hope that explains where we've been leading with this?

Just one more thing; I'll explain tomorrow.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 00:12


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 06:19
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Nice summary 😉

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Neil B
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 09:51
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 22:32) *
Nice summary from HCA.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 07:19) *
Nice summary 😉

If that was a bit ironic I didn't mean to sound patronising.
Yours was a needed focusing summary of the thread for OP.
Mine just expands on where we are likely going.

Talking amongst ourselves for a mo, any suggestion for wording?

It's crucially important*, in this case particularly, to sufficiently twist the Court Officers arm to accept despite
any possible objection.
My own thoughts are to concentrate on the timing of contraventions vs move and the impossibilty he could
have received these PCNs.


* otherwise 2 X fee later.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 09:52


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sandygarg
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 10:46
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 18:01) *
So the questions I need to ask TEC are as (are these the right numbers for TEC ? 0300 123 1059 or 01604 619 450):

How many PCNs there are - we already know there are TWO PCNs
The PCN number(s) - Newlyn already gave me the PCN numbers for both
The dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC
Whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address.
the dates each PCN was registered as a debt.
If there are live warrants and it seems so - Newlyn told me that these are live warrants

Ask TEC to e-mail the appropriate forms to complete (is this to challenge the decision?).

Ask DVLA when they updated my details on their records? (see 'docref' on V5C - 'docref' says: 11 digit number "12 10 16") - does it mean they updated my details on 12th Oct 2016?

Ask Ealing council when the PCNs were issued and sent to me and at which address?


Ok, I managed to speak to TEC just now and according to them there are NO LIVE warrants against those 2 PCNs.

PCNs were authorised by TEC on 3 May 2016 and 7 Jul 2016 and EXPIRED on 3 May 2017 and 7 July 2017.

She subsequently email me the PE2 and PE3 forms to fill and sign and send to them. Once TEC will receive PE2 and PE3, they will forward the same to Council confirming that I am challenging the PCNs and then it is upto the council what they will decide, normal turn around time is 11 weeks.

I further called Newlyn to find out how many PCNs are against my name and she confirmed only TWO. She further confirmed that they do not know whether these warrants are live or expired (Yesterday they confirmed that there are LIVE warrants against these PCNs). She further confirmed that bailiffs are not due to visit my property on 18th Sept and the information given to me yesterday was WRONG.
She also confirmed that they received the debt collection request from Council on 23 Aug 2017.

So what's the next step, Fill PE2 and PE3 for both PCNs and send to TEC asap?

This post has been edited by sandygarg: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 10:46
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Neil B
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 10:56
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Well we suspected something was amiss.

But this still not clear.
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:46) *
PCNs were authorised by TEC on 3 May 2016 and 7 Jul 2016 and EXPIRED on 3 May 2017 and 7 July 2017.

What does 'authorised' mean?

I cannot imagine why you need to file PEs at the mo.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sandygarg
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:20
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:43) *
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 17:10) *
As advised already please ring the TEC first thing in the morning. You need to try and establish how many PCNs there are, the PCN number(s) and the dates the warrants were authorised by the TEC? And whether any of the warrants were ever re-issued against your new address. In the past I have found the TEC cooperative, even if you don't have the PCN numbers. You just need to give them the RK name, the address that was recorded with the DVLA at the time and the VRM, they can do a search. But sometimes you luck out and they won't give you the details without the PCN numbers, so keep trying.

Agree with the first but not the blue.



I don't know exactly what 'authorised' means. You agreed to Enceladus in post#46 that I should ask the one in blue and that's what I asked TEC and she gave me the dates as 3 may 16 and 7 jul 2016. I think warrants were ISSUED on those dates and subsequently expired after ONE year on 3 may 2017 and 7 jul 2017.

what do we need to do now? please advice.

is that a good news that there are no live warrants against the PCNs or not a good news?



QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 01:09) *
Sandy. Hang in there.
You've actually done very well answering the questions: We see lots of people ask, then panic when they realise a bit of effort is required.
We never hear from again but the end result for them can only be bad.
So well done for sticking with it.

Just those checks with TEC tomorrow (and Council if you can get through - but don't spend too long bothering with them)
and we are at the point we can tell you what you need to do.
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 10 Sep 2017 - 22:02) *
Apply to make out of time statutory declarations to TEC.

Let's explain.

If a postal PCN is issued and the Council don't get a reply or payment, they increase the penalty by 50%
and serve Charge Certificate giving you 14 further days to pay.
In your case, PCN £130 +50% = £195.
If they still don't get payment then they register the debt with TEC, costing and adding £7 (in your older case).
They can then serve a final notice, the Order for Recovery, now for the total £202, giving you another 21 days to pay.

BUT the law recognises that letters/notices sometimes don't get delivered or reach the right person.
So, the OfR also allows people to make a Statutory Declaration - that the PCN was never received.
You can only do that in those same 21 days.
If done, a new PCN would be issued and you can pay or contest. It would be £65 at discount.
This is what we are aiming for.

The problem is, some people, like yourself, don't receive anything - because, unless they know otherwise at
the time, the Council can only use the address DVLA give them.
So without that final notice, the OfR, you had no opportunity to make the Statutory Declaration in that
21 days. This is called 'the normally permitted time'

So what you are about to do is to ask the Court TEC to file that Statutory Declaration late, i.e. after the
normally permitted time.
and this next bit is very important -
You need to ask only that and explain only why you could not do so earlier

We will help.
You may not realise it but you have a strong case, despite apparently not updating with DVLA promptly.
Based on the dates we have so far, it is highly unlikely that the PCNs could ever have gone to your
new address. Even if you had updated DVLA in December 2015 they would not have processed + the
issue of Christmas post + staff holidays at both DVLA and Council.

I hope that explains where we've been leading with this?

Just one more thing; I'll explain tomorrow.


Hello Neil,

this is a fantastic post very helpful for novice like me, somehow I missed that post earlier.

You are a real GEM and a great asset to this forum I must say.

Many thanks for all your advice. really appreciate it.

Cheers


This post has been edited by sandygarg: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:06
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Neil B
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:41
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 12:20) *
I don't know exactly what 'authorised' means. I think warrants were ISSUED on those dates and subsequently expired after ONE year on 3 may 2017 and 7 jul 2017.

what do we need to do now? please advice.

is that a good news that there are no live warrants against the PCNs or not a good news?

Sounds good until we know anything bad.

Authorised could mean that - or could just mean the debts were only 'registered' on those dates and no
warrants ever applied for?

So, if you can try >

Ask when each debt was 'registered'.

and
If Council later applied for warrants and if so when.

--

To explain, a bit I missed from my earlier explanation.

When the 21 days allowed by the OfR expires, is when the Council can ask for a warrant to be authorised.
They tend to do that then or shortly after. So we should see about 4-8 weeks between registration and warrant.

TEC Customer Services staff are helpful but not legally trained and vary in their level of knowledge and, as
Enceladus alluded to earlier, how far they'll look.

Sometimes, as a bemused member of the public, you have to tell them which bit is important that you need to know.
Odd isn't it.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 11:41


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 12:55
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Sandy.
I assume you've been trying to clarify further with TEC.

I'm just concerned that filing an OOT at the mo, may, in these most unusual circumstances,
help the Council.
If we do and they don't contest it then this follows >
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 01:09) *
So, the OfR also allows people to make a Statutory Declaration - that the PCN was never received.
You can only do that in those same 21 days.
If done, a new PCN would be issued and you can pay or contest. It would be £65 at discount.
This is what we are aiming for.

But now we think they may not have current authority to collect - so we don't want new PCNs;
We want it written off entirely biggrin.gif

I'm out soon but look forward to hearing the latest news.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sandygarg
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:22
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:55) *
Sandy.
I assume you've been trying to clarify further with TEC.


trying hard from last more than 45 mins but no one is answering the call on TEC sad.gif
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Neil B
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:34
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 14:22) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:55) *
Sandy.
I assume you've been trying to clarify further with TEC.


trying hard from last more than 45 mins but no one is answering the call on TEC sad.gif

Maybe busier afternoons.
They have a broken queue feedback that normally tells you your position - but not at mo.

I got through in under a minute the other day, at 11am.

Did you understand my comment?

I'm loathe to delay any action we might take and put you at risk but I seriously think we may not
have to.

I'm trying to talk with someone with back door to Newlyn - but they are currently in a meeting
with Govt. on exactly this atrocious system!


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sandygarg
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:49
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:55) *
I'm just concerned that filing an OOT at the mo, may, in these most unusual circumstances,
help the Council.
If we do and they don't contest it then this follows >
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 01:09) *
So, the OfR also allows people to make a Statutory Declaration - that the PCN was never received.
You can only do that in those same 21 days.
If done, a new PCN would be issued and you can pay or contest. It would be £65 at discount.
This is what we are aiming for.


Yes I understood above bit.

But now we think they may not have current authority to collect - so we don't want new PCNs;
We want it written off entirely biggrin.gif

Couldn't understand "they may not have current authority to collect" and how we can write off entirely?

I'm out soon but look forward to hearing the latest news.


Still no luck with TEC
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Neil B
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 13:57
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Well, if they did have warrants and they've expired there's nothing they can do, that I know of, to
collect the debts.
It would explain why Newlyns act as debt collectors (no power) and are not asking the statutory fees on
top, that they are entitled to if acting as bailiffs.

At the mo, it appears to be a try-on, reliant on your goodwill.

But I will keep pressing my Newlyn contact.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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sandygarg
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 14:09
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 12:41) *
Ask when each debt was 'registered'. - They were registered on 25 Feb 2016 and 29 Apr 2016
and
If Council later applied for warrants and if so when.

Council applied for "Certificate of Bailiff" instead of warrants - does that makes sense?


She also said bailiff wont turn at your property as Warrants are now expired.

She further said either you challenge the PCN by filling PEs forms or wait until Council re-register the warrants. She further confirmed that council has not re-register the warrants yet.

This post has been edited by sandygarg: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 14:12
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Neil B
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 14:16
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QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 15:09) *
She further said either you challenge the PCN by filling PEs forms or wait until Council re-register the warrants. She further confirmed that council has not re-register the warrants yet.

Oh! New one on me. As far as I know, they can't. I'm off to check that!


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 14:47
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 15:16) *
QUOTE (sandygarg @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 15:09) *
She further said either you challenge the PCN by filling PEs forms or wait until Council re-register the warrants. She further confirmed that council has not re-register the warrants yet.

Oh! New one on me. As far as I know, they can't. I'm off to check that!

I've found a Civil Procedure Rule stating they can extend warrants (new to me) but they have to apply before
an existing warrant expires. CPR 84.5.

I'm also still curious about the original life of warrants; the question I asked Enceladus earlier.
That is, the 12 month starting point in CPR 75.7, now firmly scored through but tallying with the info
from TEC Sandy got today -
vs
The possible reason it's scored through being the introduction of the Taking Control Regs, where, if I'm
reading correctly, 9 (1) cites a later starting point?

Members thoughts welcome - actually, begged.

Links.
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...part75#IDAGQ0HC
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...l-of-goods#84.5
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/18...gulation/9/made



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 22:33
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Just bumping you to top hoping for further opinions Sandy.

I haven't been able to speak to anyone yet.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 07:58
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@NeilB, no irony, good piece of work.

I think we're getting hung up on the OP's misuse of 'authorised', it seems clear that the position is:

Two outstanding PCNs;
No live warrants;
Debt collectors engaged by the authority i.e. they have abandoned the prescribed enforcement process.

OP, IMO, stop dealing with the players individually and write to the authority, copy to Newlyn and TEC:

Dear Mr Parking,
PCNs ****** & *********; VRM *********

I refer to the above and the enclosed letter from your agent, Newlyn, dated ****.

On receipt of the letter, which doesn't even refer to PCNs, I investigated the matter and have established that the above PCNs (and I assume other notices) were issued by the authority but not received by me. As you can see from this letter, I am not keeping my address a secret and my only objective is to regularise the situation to which end I should be grateful if the authority would re-engage with the prescribed procedure.

I have copied this letter to the Traffic Enforcement Centre and Newlyn to ensure that all parties are aware of the situation.

Hugs


Thoughts from others? IMO, the time for bilateral phone calls is over.
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sandygarg
post Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 08:35
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 23:33) *
Just bumping you to top hoping for further opinions Sandy.

I haven't been able to speak to anyone yet.


Thanks Neil, Highly appreciate your efforts!
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sandygarg
post Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 08:50
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 08:58) *
Debt collectors engaged by the authority i.e. they have abandoned the prescribed enforcement process.


what does it mean "they have abandoned the prescribed enforcement process."?
what is the prescribed procedure?
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hcandersen
post Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 12:39
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The procedure is service of statutory notices, including Order for Recovery - which is when the TEC first get involved- followed by a warrant to be executed by authorised bailiffs. It's a legal process and bailiffs are authorised and regulated and recover their own costs through charges set by regulations.

I can call myself a 'debt collector ', it's a meaningless concept.

And as there's no warrant the 'debt collector' cannot seize property, all they can do is huff and puff.

Hence for the authority to re-engage with the prescribed process. They could do this in several ways, including rewinding the process to the PCN stage and inviting reps within a specified and extended period.
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