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[NIP Wizard] NIP 4 Months Late and not to the RK!
GRogers
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 08:41
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2016
Date of the NIP: - 114 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 116 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A38 Bristol Road between Speedwell Road and Priory Road, Birmingham
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Have use of the vehicle
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I received the NIP on the 21/04/2017 for a speeding offence (38mph in a 30mph zone) on the 26/12/2016. I am not the Registered Keeper of the vehicle, my sister is and has been registered on this vehicle since March 2016. She has never received any notification regarding this offence and has not passed my details to anyone in relation to this NIP.

4 days before I received this NIP, I was stopped by West Midlands Police as it has shown on the there system that the Registered Keeper is a woman. I explained that although she is the RK, I have insured the car and use it daily. They noted all my details and let me on my way without any charges.

This is where it gets interesting. Why was the NIP not sent to the RK within the 14 period, but instead is addressed to me 4 months after the offence, and 3 days after I was pulled over?

There is no issue obviously that they couldn't contact the RK as it is evident from the above that they already have her information. The only way they could have got my details was when they stopped me last week, but this does not prove I was driving the car last December.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 08:41:34 +0000
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post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 08:41
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peterguk
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 08:49
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Have you SEEN the V5C?

If yes, is the name and address EXACTLY as it should be?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 08:50


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GRogers
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 08:51
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Hi,

Yes I have seen the V5C, it states she is the registered keeper as of March 2016. and address details are correct.

This post has been edited by GRogers: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 08:53
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Jlc
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 08:54
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QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:41) *
...but this does not prove I was driving the car last December.

That is correct but one presumes you have been asked to name the driver under s172?

Regardless of any 'late' NIP defence this requirement remains and must be responded to. (This does not prejudice any other defence you may have)

It's possible your details have been obtained from the MIB (Insurance Database). But the reasons why are not clear at the moment - they may do this if there's an issue obtaining RK details or after further enquiries.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 08:57


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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666
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:02
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There are many possible explanations, e.g. NIP sent to sister but not delivered, NIP discarded as junk mail, sister "mis-remembers" receiving it ...

I suspect they found you from the insurers' database, and the police stop was a coincidence.

Whatever, none of this removes your requirement to respond to the S172 notice naming the driver.




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GRogers
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:06
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But as I mentioned, she has never received a NIP nor has she been asked to name a driver, this NIP addressed to me is the first we have heard of the offence. As West Midlands Police had no idea who was driving the car on the date the offence occurred, it should have gone to the RK. regardless of whether I'm insured on it or not.
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:06
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QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:41) *
but this does not prove I was driving the car last December.

Indeed it doesn't but as you now have a S172 request you have to "give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver". This is a less onerous burden than if you are the registered keeper.

It seems there are four possibilities. You may want to consider if it is wise confirming if you are/aren't the driver on a public forum.

If you are the driver return the form promptly and hope that they also promptly offer you a fixed penalty £100/3pts.

If you are the driver return the form at the end of the 28 days you are allowed. Hope that they offer you a fixed penalty as this would take you over the six months that they have to take you to court, so you could ignore the FPN. They cannot take you to court whilst there is an active FPN offer. Of course they are also aware of this six month limit so they may summons you to court instead straight away instead of offering you a FPN. The points will be the same but the fine may be larger unless you can convince them to sentence at FPN, as they have guidelines to do if a FPN cannot be taken up for administrative reasons.

If you aren't the driver name the driver at the end of the 28 days. They will then receive their own S172 request which, if returned at the end of the 28 days will also be outside the six month limit so court proceeding can't be brought and any FPN can be ignored.

If you aren't the driver and don't know who the driver is return the S172 request with a covering letter explaining that you are not the RK and do not have any information to give about the identity of the driver. The police could then potentially prosecute you for S172 but they would have to prove that you had information that you didn't give. As I have said this is a lower bar than that of the RK, who "shall give such information as to the identity of the driver as he may be required to".

Obviously you mustn't name a driver you know to be incorrect as this would be perverting the course of justice and end up with prison time if proved.
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andy_foster
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:10
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Applying Occam's razor, it seems most likely that a marker had been placed on the vehicle due to some issue regarding the RK's details on the PNC.

Unless there was something about the OP driving that car on that occasion which caused the police to run a check on the vehicle, he would not have been stopped merely because the RK is female.


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Andy

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GRogers
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:12
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Could I not just send a letter along with a copy of the NIP to say that this is outside of the 14 day notification period so is not valid?
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Jlc
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:14
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QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:06) *
But as I mentioned, she has never received a NIP nor has she been asked to name a driver, this NIP addressed to me is the first we have heard of the offence. As West Midlands Police had no idea who was driving the car on the date the offence occurred, it should have gone to the RK. regardless of whether I'm insured on it or not.

NMF summarises nicely above. If you have received a s172 request then it must be complied with in its own right and what has happened does change your obligation. If you fail to comply then you are likely to receive 6 points.

Whether the underlying offence can be prosecuted is a separate matter.

QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:12) *
Could I not just send a letter along with a copy of the NIP to say that this is outside of the 14 day notification period so is not valid?

Of course - but if you don't comply with the s172 request you are likely to be prosecuted.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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666
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:23
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QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:12) *
Could I not just send a letter along with a copy of the NIP to say that this is outside of the 14 day notification period so is not valid?


No. First, the only NIP to which the 14-day rule applies is the first one, and you don't know whether that was sent to the RK, only that it was not received.

Second, as already advised, the s172 request applies whether or not the NIP is valid.
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GRogers
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:30
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Ok thanks.

So if I fill out the s172 request I assume then I will receive an offer to pay fine and take points or Driver awareness course. So no point in even challenging the 14 Day rule?

Just for the record the reason I was stopped was because, and I Quote "We are having a slow day, and have nothing better to do!"
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Jlc
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:33
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QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:30) *
So if I fill out the s172 request I assume then I will receive an offer to pay fine and take points or Driver awareness course. So no point in even challenging the 14 Day rule?

You have to comply with the s172 request as detailed a few times above. The timing of which may be important as detailed in NML's post. You won't get an awareness course offer at this late stage.

They are likely to issue a 3 points £100 fixed penalty offer if this keeps the speeding matter within 6 months (it times out then). Otherwise, they may take the matter to court.

Regardless, naming the driver doesn't remove any options you have to 'challenge' the offence but this would also have to be at court. Without knowing the reason for the 'late' NIP it's hard to say if you have a prospect of success. They may be able to provide sufficient evidence that the 1st NIP was sent in time and the presumption is that it was delivered.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:34


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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andy_foster
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:36
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Sections 1 and 2 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 cover the requirement to serve a NIP within 14 days and the exceptions to that requirement. Read them.
If they failed to serve a NIP within the 14 days, and if there is no applicable exception to the requirement, then the failure to serve a NIP would be a defence to the substantive speeding charge.
However, the requirements of s. 1 RTOA 1988 are presumed to have been complied with until the contrary is proven - which can only happen during a trial for the speeding offence, for which they would need evidence that you were the driver. It would not be a defence any failure to provide the driver's details under s. 172 RTA 1988.

By all means send a covering letter with the s. 172 form stating that the NIP is invalid as it is late and no NIP was served on the RK within 14 days or at all, but you still need to name the driver.


--------------------
Andy

Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit.
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Jlc
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:40
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:36) *
By all means send a covering letter with the s. 172 form stating that the NIP is invalid as it is late and no NIP was served on the RK within 14 days or at all, but you still need to name the driver.

This.

But their response could be either to simply issue a CoFP ('ignoring your comments'), explaining why they believe they have complied or they are dropping the matter (if they know they haven't complied and are 'trying it on').

Don't bank on the latter possibility though.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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GRogers
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:47
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Thanks all for your advice. Just one other thing. Is there a way of telling from the NIP I have received if this is the first one they have sent ie. ref numbers etc.
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AntonyMMM
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:51
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If you were/are not the registered keeper then it will not be the first NIP to be sent out.



This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 09:54
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GRogers
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:00
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:51) *
If you were/are not the registered keeper then it will not be the first NIP to be sent out.


So if I contact West Midlands Police Central Ticket Office they should be able to tell me if and when any other NIPs have been sent and any if they had any problems serving them to the RK?
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Jlc
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:01
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QUOTE (GRogers @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:47) *
Is there a way of telling from the NIP I have received if this is the first one they have sent ie. ref numbers etc.

Unfortunately not.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nigelbb
post Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:01
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QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 10:02) *
There are many possible explanations, e.g. NIP sent to sister but not delivered, NIP discarded as junk mail, sister "mis-remembers" receiving it ...

In any of these scenarios were correct why is the sister not being prosecuted for not complying with a s172 request?

Another possibility is that the sister has returned the s172 request naming the OP but doesn't like to admit this or that somebody else in her household has returned the s172 request naming the OP.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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