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Postal Requistion with request to Plead on line
nuts32
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:04
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Hi New here and would like some advice / help please. I was caught (followed by unmarked car) doing 103mph on the M6 toll road last August. I have just received a postal requisition with an additional sheet requesting me to make a plea on line,
highlighting a 33% discount on my fine. Circumstances surrounding the time. My mother in law had a stroke 4 days earlier and was in Warrington Hospital, we live in Bournemouth. We had travelled up to Warrington on the Thursday, back to
Bournemouth Friday, she took a turn for the worse Saturday so back to Warrington Saturday, spent Saturday night, Sunday and Sunday night at the Hospital, albeit I did sleep Sunday night at a local B&B, sadly she passed away Monday morning.
My daughter had travelled up on the Sunday, so we had two cars in Warrington, my wife decided to travel with our daughter and I drove my car with my son. As you can imagine my head was elsewhere and whilst I was aware of the road, my speed
concentration had lapsed.

At the time I had a 3 point NIP pending which I now have, other than that no points less than 3 years old.

I am a company director and responsible for 50% of the sales of the company, we have 13 employees who rely on my sales which involves considerable driving. I am aware that at this speed a ban is likely. Do I...

1. Plead guilty on Line along with well written mitigating circumstances?
2. Plead guilty by post along with well written mitigating circumstances?
3. Plead guilty by means of 1 or 2 above but attend court on the hearing date?

The paperwork also states that the hearing will take place on the date enclosed 31/05/16 if they intend to disqualify me they will advise on a date I need to attend court.

I have a holiday booked 20/05/16 - 27/05/16 for which I need my driving license am I able to carry out the options above but not send my license until I return from Holiday?

Any help / advice would be appreciated.

Many Thanks
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BaggieBoy
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:09
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What you written above is not mitigation, quite the opposite, if your head was elsewhere the court may take the view you shouldn't have been driving.

Mitigation would be good weather, light traffic conditions etc.

Personally I would go with a postal guilty plea, but there is a high likelihood they will adjourn and request your presence.
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nuts32
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:19
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:09) *
What you written above is not mitigation, quite the opposite, if your head was elsewhere the court may take the view you shouldn't have been driving.

Mitigation would be good weather, light traffic conditions etc.

Personally I would go with a postal guilty plea, but there is a high likelihood they will adjourn and request your presence.



Ok thanks for that, it just so happens it was good weather and light traffic. I have read a few views where some say an early postal plea is best and others saying I should attend court with a solicitor, if I attend with a solicitor, the
cost is more than I would pay for a driver if I was banned for 28 days.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:26
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Not much point in a solicitor for a guilty plea, as you rightly worked out.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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nuts32
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:31
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:26) *
Not much point in a solicitor for a guilty plea, as you rightly worked out.



The solicitors advice is that if he attends then he would plead my case in order to reduce any possible ban and end up with a fine and points. Do you think the chances are the same whether we attend or I just do it by post/online?

Thanks
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Logician
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:38
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As above, what you have written may explain the offence to some extent but does not mitigate it, and you would be better not to say it. For 103 in a 70 limit the most likely outcome is 6 points, which would put you on 9 and liable to a 6 month disqualification for any further transgression, speed, mobile phone, red light or whatever. This may well be thought to be more likely to concentrate your mind than the alternative of a very short ban. Bearing in mind any ban would be short, a matter of a couple of weeks perhaps, the court would probably consider that it would have little or no effect on your company or put anyone else's job at risk.

You are entitled to a full discount off the fine for a plea at the earliest opportunity which is at or before the first hearing, there is no advantage to you in pleading any earlier and despite the tone of the letter you do not have to. As you need your licence until the 27th May I would do nothing in advance. Then, as there is a risk of disqualification, either:
a) If you want a period after your return from holiday when you can drive, plead by post, using assured next day delivery on 28th May. The likely result is an adjournment for at least some weeks and a request for you to attend in person at that date.
b) If you want this out of the way, attend on the 31st May without pleading in advance. Any ban will start immediately, so you will have a continuous period of not driving after your holiday, if you should be banned.


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Jlc
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:46
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QUOTE (nuts32 @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:31) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:26) *
Not much point in a solicitor for a guilty plea, as you rightly worked out.



The solicitors advice is that if he attends then he would plead my case in order to reduce any possible ban and end up with a fine and points. Do you think the chances are the same whether we attend or I just do it by post/online?

The sentencing guidelines are fairly closely followed - the solicitor could influence them from ban to points but it is just as likely you can do the same just as long as you are contrite and do not mention the aggravating factors.

Of course some will swear the solicitor was a life saver but a lot depends on how comfortable you feel about presenting your own case. Some would argue this would come best from you anyway... Of course the question to look out for is that if your licence is so important then why risk it? (As noted mentioning the unfortunate circumstances could go against you so stick to a momentary lapse in concentration and major on the dry/quiet and impact on the company)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nuts32
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:52
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QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:38) *
As above, what you have written may explain the offence to some extent but does not mitigate it, and you would be better not to say it. For 103 in a 70 limit the most likely outcome is 6 points, which would put you on 9 and liable to a 6 month disqualification for any further transgression, speed, mobile phone, red light or whatever. This may well be thought to be more likely to concentrate your mind than the alternative of a very short ban. Bearing in mind any ban would be short, a matter of a couple of weeks perhaps, the court would probably consider that it would have little or no effect on your company or put anyone else's job at risk.

You are entitled to a full discount off the fine for a plea at the earliest opportunity which is at or before the first hearing, there is no advantage to you in pleading any earlier and despite the tone of the letter you do not have to. As you need your licence until the 27th May I would do nothing in advance. Then, as there is a risk of disqualification, either:
a) If you want a period after your return from holiday when you can drive, plead by post, using assured next day delivery on 28th May. The likely result is an adjournment for at least some weeks and a request for you to attend in person at that date.
b) If you want this out of the way, attend on the 31st May without pleading in advance. Any ban will start immediately, so you will have a continuous period of not driving after your holiday, if you should be banned.



Thanks for this, very helpful. The emphasis is for me to plead online and it states 'any time up to the day before the court makes a decision' so does this count as an early plea? The way everything is worded is in such a way that I should plead on line now, which is quite daunting.

Thanks

QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:46) *
QUOTE (nuts32 @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:31) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 17:26) *
Not much point in a solicitor for a guilty plea, as you rightly worked out.



The solicitors advice is that if he attends then he would plead my case in order to reduce any possible ban and end up with a fine and points. Do you think the chances are the same whether we attend or I just do it by post/online?

The sentencing guidelines are fairly closely followed - the solicitor could influence them from ban to points but it is just as likely you can do the same just as long as you are contrite and do not mention the aggravating factors.

Of course some will swear the solicitor was a life saver but a lot depends on how comfortable you feel about presenting your own case. Some would argue this would come best from you anyway... Of course the question to look out for is that if your licence is so important then why risk it? (As noted mentioning the unfortunate circumstances could go against you so stick to a momentary lapse in concentration and major on the dry/quiet and impact on the company)



Thanks I agree and now I think about it you are right the circumstances would dictate I shouldn't have been driving in the first place
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southpaw82
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 19:08
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You get the 1/3 discount whether you plead guilty on line or on the day of your first appearance at court.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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kezzy
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 19:15
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Gentlemen, I take my hat off to you, the advice given was 100%, a solicitor could not give better advice. Nuts, don't bother with a solicitor these guys are tops. You can sort this yourself, and I think Logicians thread was just perfect for you. The best of luck to on the day matey.
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nuts32
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 20:03
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QUOTE (kezzy @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 19:15) *
Gentlemen, I take my hat off to you, the advice given was 100%, a solicitor could not give better advice. Nuts, don't bother with a solicitor these guys are tops. You can sort this yourself, and I think Logicians thread was just perfect for you. The best of luck to on the day matey.


Thanks and yes thanks guys I think I will take Logicans advice and plead guilty either by post or on line the day before the case is heard. I have found some legal type sites that offer to write your mitigating circumstances in the right way, is this worth doing or not?

Thanks

This post has been edited by nuts32: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 20:04
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Jlc
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 20:15
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QUOTE (nuts32 @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 20:03) *
I have found some legal type sites that offer to write your mitigating circumstances in the right way, is this worth doing or not?

Depends on how deep your pockets are frankly...

Whilst it's a big deal to you the bench see hundreds of these cases and you'll be 'processed' quicker than you expect. Brevity is the key and remaining contrite.

Have a look at the site's letters for starters... here.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 20:45
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To be frank there is little you can say in these circumstances and a lengthy screed which amounts to very little is merely irritating. The guidelines tend to be followed closely and the most important thing is to make clear there was nothing aggravating. If you were facing a 6 months' ban it would be rather different and for example an explanation of how your employees' jobs depend on you generating sales which can only practically be achieved by driving to customers would be important. I would say something like "It was a clear bright day with little traffic on the motorway and unfortunately I allowed my speed to build up, for which I can only apologise."


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Taff In Notts
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 20:59
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Nuts32,

I was in a similar situation to you last year, got caught at 66 in a 40. My mother had been seriously ill in S. Wales for about three months before the incident and I had been travelling down to S. Wales almost every weekend during that time. On two occasions her condition was critical and I was advised to get down there ASAP. By the time I eventually went to court my mother had passed away. I pleaded guilty and in my mitigating statement I simply stated that it was a momentary lapse of concentration and then explained what I had been through in the months prior to the incident.

However, before going to court, I arranged and took a Driving Safely and Speed Awareness Course with a private company and I got a written report from them to present in court so that I could show the magistrates that I was trying to do something to improve my driving standards. I think the written report helped quite a bit and they reduced my fine by the cost of the course. I was also asked if I would prefer a short ban but, as that didn't suit my circumstances at the time, I got six points instead.
If you have the time it might be worth considering something like this.

Good luck anyway.

Taff
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nuts32
post Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 21:16
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 20:15) *
QUOTE (nuts32 @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 20:03) *
I have found some legal type sites that offer to write your mitigating circumstances in the right way, is this worth doing or not?

Depends on how deep your pockets are frankly...

Whilst it's a big deal to you the bench see hundreds of these cases and you'll be 'processed' quicker than you expect. Brevity is the key and remaining contrite.

Have a look at the site's letters for starters... here.


Thanks for this and the link very useful

QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 20:45) *
To be frank there is little you can say in these circumstances and a lengthy screed which amounts to very little is merely irritating. The guidelines tend to be followed closely and the most important thing is to make clear there was nothing aggravating. If you were facing a 6 months' ban it would be rather different and for example an explanation of how your employees' jobs depend on you generating sales which can only practically be achieved by driving to customers would be important. I would say something like "It was a clear bright day with little traffic on the motorway and unfortunately I allowed my speed to build up, for which I can only apologise."



Thanks Logican much appreciated

QUOTE (Taff In Notts @ Mon, 29 Feb 2016 - 20:59) *
Nuts32,

I was in a similar situation to you last year, got caught at 66 in a 40. My mother had been seriously ill in S. Wales for about three months before the incident and I had been travelling down to S. Wales almost every weekend during that time. On two occasions her condition was critical and I was advised to get down there ASAP. By the time I eventually went to court my mother had passed away. I pleaded guilty and in my mitigating statement I simply stated that it was a momentary lapse of concentration and then explained what I had been through in the months prior to the incident.

However, before going to court, I arranged and took a Driving Safely and Speed Awareness Course with a private company and I got a written report from them to present in court so that I could show the magistrates that I was trying to do something to improve my driving standards. I think the written report helped quite a bit and they reduced my fine by the cost of the course. I was also asked if I would prefer a short ban but, as that didn't suit my circumstances at the time, I got six points instead.
If you have the time it might be worth considering something like this.

Good luck anyway.



Taff


Thanks Taff
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nuts32
post Wed, 30 Mar 2016 - 21:03
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Ok so it now gets worse!!

Court date is 31/05/16, I get home tonight to the receipt of a NIP! 37 in a 30 up in Newcastle. So with the 3 points I already have, plus the potential 6 or a ban and now another 3 putting me at least on a 12 point totting up ban. I now have a bit of a dilemma as best case I can respond to the NIP accordingly and pray for a driver awareness course and then continue with my original plan of pleading guilty to big offence myself along with mitigating circumstances, this will then result in either 6 points giving me 9 in total or a 7 to 56 day ban. Alternatively I get 3 points for this latest one with the potential of 12 in total following the court case, do I now involve a solicitor, to help me avoid a totting up ban? Obviously I would wait and see what the outcome of the latest one is before doing that, I assume this would be resolved if I respond straight away before my court case. No points at all for years and now potentially 12 inside 12 months!
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Jlc
post Wed, 30 Mar 2016 - 21:25
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That speed should see a course offer of you haven't done one in the last 3 years.

In terms of a solicitor for an exceptional hardship plea that is up to you. Personally I think it comes best from the individual but for starters the hardship should be beyond what is reasonably foreseeable. (The impact on others carries more weight)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 - 21:26


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nuts32
post Wed, 30 Mar 2016 - 21:40
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 30 Mar 2016 - 22:25) *
That speed should see a course offer of you haven't done one in the last 3 years.

In terms of a solicitor for an exceptional hardship plea that is up to you. Personally I think it comes best from the individual but for starters the hardship should be beyond what is reasonably foreseeable. (The impact on others carries more weight)



Ok yes that's what I am hoping for and then happy to continue dealing with the big one myself. Impact on others though is significant as if I lost my license for anymore than 14 days it would effect at least 5 or 6 employees.
Thanks
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Jlc
post Wed, 30 Mar 2016 - 21:54
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If you do get the course you still have 2 years to avoid any points whatsoever...

The bench would need to be convinced the impact to the employees is unavoidable. Alternative means of transport may need to be considered (even if it's at cost to you for example).


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Wed, 30 Mar 2016 - 22:11
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QUOTE (nuts32 @ Wed, 30 Mar 2016 - 22:40) *
if I lost my license for anymore than 14 days it would effect at least 5 or 6 employees.


Out of interest, and since the court will undoubtedly want to know, how and why would you not being able to drive affect those employees?


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