Council NTO but no ticket on windscreen, Threads merged |
Council NTO but no ticket on windscreen, Threads merged |
Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 20:51
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 118 Joined: 5 Jan 2016 Member No.: 81,584 |
Dear All
I received a Notice to Owner on 2 Jan 2106 for parking "wholly or partly in a suspended space". See photo below. This is the first I had known about the parking contravention as when I got to my car there was no parking ticket on the windscreen. After viewing the photographs taken by the Parking attendant, it is clear that a ticket was attached to my windscreen at the time of photographing. It also looks as if I have parked in a bay (outside my flats) which was temporarily suspended. Given the nature of the street and the time of day, I am guessing that a school kid has removed the ticket for a laugh. I have also found some links that suggest that some parking operators may remove tickets after photographing them. https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/...Ghost-ticketing I would appreciate advice on two things : 1. The yellow suspended bay sign that was attached to the sign post, nearest to where I had parked, had fallen to the floor. The parking attendant has photographed another sign in the same street, but one much further away from my parking spot. See photos below - the second photo shows the yellow suspended bay sign much further down the road (my car is on the right, behind the other car). Other photos show yellow suspension bay signs but they are not all suspended on the same dates. How do I know that the sign that the parking officer photographed refers to the bay in which I was parked? 2. Is there a legal basis for challenging the serving of the first notice - ie: the parking ticket? If my point above is not a valid case to challenge the fine altogether, then I understand that I am liable to pay the fine, BUT only at the reduced amount. I did call my council parking services and explained point 2., but they said it was my word against theirs and that I should write an appeal. They said that they have acted legally and it is up to the adjudicator's discretion as to whether I would be able to pay the reduced amount. Please can anyone help. The NTO was served on 30 December 2015. Needless to say, the £130 fine will cause me some financial worry as a single parent on a low wage. This post has been edited by fed25: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 22:41 |
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Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 20:51
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Mon, 1 Feb 2016 - 22:47
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Nope.
Although they quite possibly will try. If they actually contest an appeal, my feeling is that when someone with a little sense looks at it they will withdraw. (no guarantees, just a feeling) The procedures for signage is simple really, a council must (mandatory) place signs that adequately convey the restriction. This imposes a duty on the motorist to actually look at and obey whatever signage is in place. If a motorist looks at a sign that has the normal restrictions and they do not apply, the suspension sign on the next pole has as much bearing as one in the next street (or Liverpool or the moon). There is no duty on any motorist to wander round every sign, just in case. What is reasonable depends entirely on circumstances. In your case you pull into a regular parking space with a pole sign immediately ahead. Quite possibly with another car in front and between you and the sign. It looks the same as normal, no big yellow sign on it (that is on the floor) you may even read the sign. Yup, same as always. At that point, why would anyone expect it to be reasonable to look at any other sign? Why would anyone walk to the next sign in the bay and read that? Or the one behind you that is further away? Totally unreasonable to expect a motorist to do any more then read one pole mounted sign. |
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Tue, 2 Feb 2016 - 18:24
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 118 Joined: 5 Jan 2016 Member No.: 81,584 |
Thank you Dancing Dad - I understand your point.
Please can I use the text in your earlier post for the appeal? "Contravention did not occur due to inadequate signage, as already detailed within formal challenge and evidenced by their own photos Procedural Impropriety for either being economical with the truth regarding signage in place or failing to consider as their own photos show this to be incorrect. Plus costs as being wholly unreasonable in forcing such an obviously flagrant disregard of their mandatory duty, to place and maintain signage such is needed to adequately convey restrictions, to adjudication." |
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Wed, 3 Feb 2016 - 08:10
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Thank you Dancing Dad - I understand your point. Please can I use the text in your earlier post for the appeal? "Contravention did not occur due to inadequate signage, as already detailed within formal challenge and evidenced by their own photos Procedural Impropriety for either being economical with the truth regarding signage in place or failing to consider as their own photos show this to be incorrect. Plus costs as being wholly unreasonable in such an obviously flagrant disregard of their mandatory duties. Firstly to place and maintain signage such is needed to adequately convey restrictions. Secondly for serving a PCN when signs were obviously deficient. Finally, in forcing such disregard to adjudication. Welcome to, I've tweaked slightly above. Don't expect costs but don't ask, don't get. |
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Wed, 3 Feb 2016 - 20:46
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 3 Feb 2016 Member No.: 82,165 |
Hi all I'm new to this and looking for some help. On Friday I received an NTO from the council advising I had been issued with a PCN on the 30th of December and I need to pay £70. I never was issued a PCN on my windscreen and I park at the back of my work and we checked the cctv today and it shows the warden taking pictures of my car but not actually leaving a PCN on my windscreen he just took images and then walked away. Do you think this is worth appealing and advising I can provide proof of cctv that the PCN was never provided. Thanks
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Wed, 3 Feb 2016 - 20:57
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#25
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Jade 989 start your own thread.
You cannot be liable in the cicumstances if a PCN was never served. Get someone in authority to indicate any copy of the CCTV footage is true and valid so there is an "audit" trail for evidence. Hopefully it is timed and corresponds with the NTO. Which Council? Mick |
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Thu, 4 Feb 2016 - 11:44
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 3 Feb 2016 Member No.: 82,165 |
Jade 989 start your own thread. You cannot be liable in the cicumstances if a PCN was never served. Get someone in authority to indicate any copy of the CCTV footage is true and valid so there is an "audit" trail for evidence. Hopefully it is timed and corresponds with the NTO. Which Council? Mick Thank you for your reply Mick, I have now posted a new thread regarding this (sorry new to this and wasn't entirely sure how to do one) it is Hull City Council and I have given more detail in my thread. Thank you. |
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Thu, 4 Feb 2016 - 16:15
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,931 Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Member No.: 4,323 |
It is unlawful for a council to use PCNs as a revenue stream.
every council knows this and takes great pains to make sure there is nothing in writing to show that they are in fact using it as a revenue stream. and they are in fact using it as a revenue stream, of that there is no doubt. A council caught knowingly acting unlawfully could end up in a world of hurt - and they know this full well. You will not embarrass the council at all with your approach. It was the operative of the outsource provider that did it not the council. nice 'plausible deniability' arrangement eh. and of course the CEOs "do not have targets" (just no overtime - in a minimum wage job - and crap shifts for those that 'don't perform' according to what CEOs have told us) When you have nuclear evidence on a legal matter, evidence that proves your case and destroys the other side's case, it is always a bad idea to publish it before the case is over IMO. Just a few of the reasons I would go softly softly and drop the CCTV bombshell into the adjudication. Otherwise they will just drop the case down a black hole (that happens a LOT when councils are caught with their trousers down) and carry on as before. Make what difference you can - is a good motto. -------------------- Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.
Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader. |
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Tue, 8 Mar 2016 - 12:07
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 118 Joined: 5 Jan 2016 Member No.: 81,584 |
Dear All
I am extremely happy to report that the council have written to me today stating that they are not going to contest my appeal any further and have cancelled the PCN. Please see the following transcript of the letter.... "I am writing to inform you that the council have taken the decision not to contest this appeal any further. The Environment and traffic Adjudicators have been contacted to this affect, and they will write to you shortly to confirm that your appeal has been withdrawn. The PCN in relation to the appeal has also been cancelled, and the council will be taking no further action on it, thus bringing the case to a close. If a hearing at the hearing center was scheduled for your appeal, it too has been cancelled, and you no longer need to attend." Questions now are ..... Do the council have the right to cancel MY appeal? Surely I am the only one who can withdraw my appeal? I asked for compensation for my time wasted...The implication of the council "not contesting" means they were either in the wrong or are not confident of winning - these are not the same thing. Should I be asking the council to admit that they issued the demand in error? In what cases do PATAS award compensation and what calculation do they use? - I can then go back to the council and request this be paid. Anyone able to help with these queries? Many thanks |
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Tue, 8 Mar 2016 - 12:34
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Dear All I am extremely happy to report that the council have written to me today stating that they are not going to contest my appeal any further and have cancelled the PCN. Please see the following transcript of the letter.... "I am writing to inform you that the council have taken the decision not to contest this appeal any further. The Environment and traffic Adjudicators have been contacted to this affect, and they will write to you shortly to confirm that your appeal has been withdrawn. The PCN in relation to the appeal has also been cancelled, and the council will be taking no further action on it, thus bringing the case to a close. If a hearing at the hearing center was scheduled for your appeal, it too has been cancelled, and you no longer need to attend." Questions now are ..... Do the council have the right to cancel MY appeal? Surely I am the only one who can withdraw my appeal? I asked for compensation for my time wasted...The implication of the council "not contesting" means they were either in the wrong or are not confident of winning - these are not the same thing. Should I be asking the council to admit that they issued the demand in error? In what cases do PATAS award compensation and what calculation do they use? - I can then go back to the council and request this be paid. Anyone able to help with these queries? Many thanks Para 6 of the schedule is relevant http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3482/schedule/made -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 9 Mar 2016 - 13:42
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 118 Joined: 5 Jan 2016 Member No.: 81,584 |
Dear All
I am extremely happy to report that the council have written to me today stating that they are not going to contest my appeal any further and have cancelled the PCN. Please see the following transcript of the letter.... "I am writing to inform you that the council have taken the decision not to contest this appeal any further. The Environment and traffic Adjudicators have been contacted to this affect, and they will write to you shortly to confirm that your appeal has been withdrawn. The PCN in relation to the appeal has also been cancelled, and the council will be taking no further action on it, thus bringing the case to a close. If a hearing at the hearing center was scheduled for your appeal, it too has been cancelled, and you no longer need to attend." Questions now are ..... Do the council have the right to cancel MY appeal? Surely I am the only one who can withdraw my appeal? I asked for compensation for my time wasted...The implication of the council "not contesting" means they were either in the wrong or are not confident of winning - these are not the same thing. Should I be asking the council to admit that they issued the demand in error? In what cases do PATAS award compensation and what calculation do they use? - I can then go back to the council and request this be paid. Anyone able to help with these queries? Many thanks |
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Wed, 9 Mar 2016 - 14:44
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,069 Joined: 13 Nov 2008 Member No.: 24,050 |
Do the council have the right to cancel MY appeal? Surely I am the only one who can withdraw my appeal?
They haven't cancelled your appeal, they've withdrawn and so PATAS have cancelled it Should I be asking the council to admit that they issued the demand in error? You can always ask, but they won't admit anything In what cases do PATAS award compensation and what calculation do they use? - I can then go back to the council and request this be paid. The council will only pay costs if awarded by the adjudicator and adjudicators very rarely award costs |
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Wed, 9 Mar 2016 - 15:18
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 15 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,183 |
I have been through this exact situation.
orford is precisely correct, but I'd add the following: If you can prove that you have sustained a loss as a result of the council's issuing of the penalty. you can write to them, effectively claiming your costs back. If the council ignores or refuses, you can issue a county court claim against them, on the small claims track. The cost is £25 to issue and £25 if a hearing is needed. You get those fees back, if you win, along with £90 per day or £18 per hour you spent in preparation, plus your mileage and other expenses if you have to attend a hearing. The court views the councils actions as equivalent to "notice of discontinuance" rendering them liable to pay you. I issued a claim against my local council, who paid up 2 weeks before the hearing. www.moneyclaim.gov.uk This post has been edited by seank: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 - 15:19 |
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