LPS, POPLA Appeal fail |
LPS, POPLA Appeal fail |
Tue, 28 Jul 2015 - 18:38
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,214 |
Hello All.
So a car was parked in a LPS managed car park - it was dark, the signage did not comply with the regulations because it was at ground level and the only sign that could possibly have seen had a car parked in front of it. the driver was probably away from the car for five minutes. The car was ticketed and appealed to POPLA using the fairly standard arguments, with some case specific ones thrown it but my appeal was declined. I have been a little slapdash here because I appealed before receiving the NtK, however I have still not actually revealed who the driver was. I've dealt with one of these before from PE that ended up with me settling for a few quid at mediation, so I suppose I'm happy to go down that route again if required, however my question probably is, how likely are LPS to take this to court? and additionally, should I just wait now for the NtK to arrive? Thanks, HN This post has been edited by HolyNougat: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 08:10 |
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Tue, 28 Jul 2015 - 18:38
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Tue, 28 Jul 2015 - 18:53
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,124 Joined: 8 Feb 2013 Member No.: 59,842 |
Llawnroc Parking Services Ltd?
Local Parking Security Ltd? Whichever, here's details of the number of times they've 'done court' in the 12 months period. http://[Commercial link removed]/20...ml#comment-form There's no NtK going to arrive now! |
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Tue, 28 Jul 2015 - 19:09
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
What 'fairly standard arguments' did you use at POPLA?
-------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Tue, 28 Jul 2015 - 19:37
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,214 |
Well, I suppose they will just issue a court claim.
Anyway, It was Local Parking Security. That link is not showing I think... I suppose the question is should I now just cough up, or go to court and risk it? I used the normal popla appeal points, GPEOL, contracts etc. including the issue about signage. I can't seem to actually find the appeal I lodged. Just had a one liner back saying: 'The operator submits that the appellant parked in the site without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket and therefore breached the terms and conditions of the site. The appellant has submitted that the operator does not have the legal right to pursue parking charge notices. In further submissions made by the appellant, the appellant has submitted that the signage in the site was not sufficient in communicating the terms and conditions. The operator has submitted as evidence a Witness Statement indicating legal authority to control the site. I therefore find that the operator does have a legal right to pursue parking charge notices in on the land; I am therefor unable to allow the appeal on this ground. The appellant has submitted that the signage in the site was not sufficient; the evidential burden of proof therefore shifts to the operator to prove on the balance of probabilities that the signage in the site did adequately communicate the terms and conditions of the site. The operator has submitted as evidence a number of photographs taken of signs erected throughout the site, in these photographs I am clearly able to see that signs were erected throughout the site clearly stating that the site was a pay & display car park. I therefore find that the signage in the site did adequately communicate the terms and conditions. The appellant parked without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket and therefore breached the terms and conditions of the site, on this ground I refuse the appeal. ' |
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Tue, 28 Jul 2015 - 19:59
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 482 Joined: 13 Jan 2014 Member No.: 67,950 |
Out of interest, did LPS ever send you a copy of the evidence that they submitted to POPLA?
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Tue, 28 Jul 2015 - 20:02
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,124 Joined: 8 Feb 2013 Member No.: 59,842 |
QUOTE Well, I suppose they will just issue a court claim. Anyway, It was Local Parking Security. That link is not showing I think... Sorry, it was a link to the Parking Prankster's blog, where he lists court cases where PPCs have been involved. PePiPoo won't allow links to the PP. I keep forgetting! Local Parking Security was involved in 30 cases - these are 'any' court case, it doesn't necessarily mean they were parking-related - but no way of ascertaining that AFAIAA. |
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Tue, 28 Jul 2015 - 21:33
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,068 Joined: 18 Oct 2012 Member No.: 57,768 |
As they have not supplied an NTK there is no keeper liability.
If they did not send you an evidence pack then you should complain to POPLA and ask to reopen the case. You usually need to do this several times. When they reopen the case add the appeal point that keeper liability does not apply as no NTK was supplied. Edit you original post if there are any clues who the driver is. |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 07:02
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,214 |
They did send me an 'evidence' pack at the same time they sent it to POPLA. Usual junk that hardly applied to the case in question at all - however, I did notice that my accountant was on the board of directors of the company that appointed LPS to 'manage' the land!
Anyway, this point about 'keeper liability' - they have never served NtK, as it happens I am not the keeper of this car... does the fact that I have appealed make any difference, can they still use PoFA to go after the keeper? - and no I've not identified the driver. This post has been edited by HolyNougat: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 07:08 |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 07:29
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,783 Joined: 2 Apr 2014 From: Essex Member No.: 69,831 |
Can you submit a copy of your Appeal (word for word) on here please as the assessors response has made no mention of GPEOL but you state this was included.
Can I see your original Appeal. They did send me an 'evidence' pack at the same time they sent it to POPLA. Usual junk that hardly applied to the case in question at all - however, I did notice that my accountant was on the board of directors of the company that appointed LPS to 'manage' the land! Anyway, this point about 'keeper liability' - they have never served NtK, as it happens I am not the keeper of this car... does the fact that I have appealed make any difference, can they still use PoFA to go after the keeper? - and no I've not identified the driver. Because you appealed the NTD (Notice to Driver) they will (wrongly) believe you're the driver. |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 08:00
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,214 |
So if I just write to them and say, Look, I was not the driver, nor am I the keeper, your window to go after the keeper is now closed - please get stuffed, that should be the end of it?! ;-)
I will try to dig out the original appeal. |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 08:03
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,783 Joined: 2 Apr 2014 From: Essex Member No.: 69,831 |
So if I just write to them and say, Look, I was not the driver, nor am I the keeper, your window to go after the keeper is now closed - please get stuffed, that should be the end of it?! ;-) I will try to dig out the original appeal. I honestly don't see that working. Best bet might be getting POPLA to re rule, but this depends on your Appeal contents. LPS do, rarely go to court but they do go, and now you've lost a POPLA appeal you'll be marked as an easy target as loosing POPLA goes against you. |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 08:09
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,214 |
Interesting.
I can actually prove that I was not the driver.... If it did go to court I don't really see how they could make it stick... under what authority could they pin the charge? |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 08:18
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,783 Joined: 2 Apr 2014 From: Essex Member No.: 69,831 |
That changes things a little bit yes.
I still think your best course of action is getting POPLA to review their decision. if the Assessor has failed/missed a point (GPEOL) then they should rule in your favour. |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 09:22
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,214 |
I can't seem to find my popla evidence...
I think I will just write to LPS saying I'm not the driver, I'm not the keeper, drop the case or I'll see you in court. |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 09:32
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,068 Joined: 18 Oct 2012 Member No.: 57,768 |
Hahaha.
The parking company have fallen for the old switcheroo! They failed to check if you were appealing as driver or keeper; you were neither, and now the keeper liability window is shut. Well done for accidentally pulling that off. They do it all the time (with the agent/principal thing) so it is amusing to see the biter bit for once. I would go with your letter but just state you were not the driver. Dear LPS, I confirm that I was appealing on behalf of the driver, but was nt the driver. I can prove this as follows (your proof you mentioned here). Any further contact with myself, other than to confirm you will not be pursuing me, will class as harassment. If you believe the charge is valid you must contact the driver directly from this point onwards. |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 10:38
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,783 Joined: 2 Apr 2014 From: Essex Member No.: 69,831 |
I'd amend that a little bit
Dear LPS I am writing to instruct you to cease contacting me with regards to the following PCN. As I was not the driver in question (Proof attached) and you have failed to comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act I am not liable for the charge. Please direct all future correspondance to the driver, which I am not required to disclosed Regards XXXXXXX |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 12:15
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,214 |
OK - will be interesting to see what they come back with.
Something along the lines of 'oh - it must have been you' or something like that! ;-) Is there always a requirement to issue a NtK? seems odd that they don't just do it automatically. |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 12:27
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,068 Joined: 18 Oct 2012 Member No.: 57,768 |
OK - will be interesting to see what they come back with. Something along the lines of 'oh - it must have been you' or something like that! ;-) Is there always a requirement to issue a NtK? seems odd that they don't just do it automatically. There is no requirement to issue an NTK, but they have to if they want to pursue the keeper. The clued up operators therefore issue one anyway. The knuckle-draggers don't. |
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Wed, 29 Jul 2015 - 18:49
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,356 Joined: 30 Jun 2008 From: Landan Member No.: 20,731 |
POPLA seemed to think the Appellant was the driver: "The appellant parked without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket..." What proof do you have that you were not the driver? Would it outweigh the "proof" (assuming POPLA didn't just assume) that you were the driver?
--Churchmouse |
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Thu, 30 Jul 2015 - 14:59
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 31 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,214 |
Well, I was working at the time of the incident.
Additionally I have never admitted to driving the car. The PP blog has an entry about pretty much exactly this situation where POPLA ruled again the parking company. Basically it seems that they should always issue an NtK to be PoFA compliant, they can't assume they know who the driver is! |
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