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Posted by: afraid Sun, 30 Dec 2007 - 16:19
Post #230216

hello my husand is the rk of our mercedes viti 108 van. i am on insurance and so is 18 year old son . in septemer we received a nip for speeding 76mph in 60 limit for motor vehicle. i knew i was driving van this week as car was being serviced for mot. i sent nip back next day and we were initially offered a fixed penalty. the next day we had a letter from fixed penalty office stating the offense was still moter vehicle 76mph in a 6omph but they had not noted it was a van which apparently should have been travelling at 50mph. i rang the supervisor and although she said the wrong paperwork had been sent again the case had to go to court as it was a van which is restricted it is mam2700. i was in a awful state and then to make things worse we realized it was my son driving the picture we had was blurred but we then knew we had to inform the ticket office it was him. i phoned them they said it was ok i had to write to expliain which i did, they replied no further action would be taken against me and sent him a nip which we sent back signed by him. we also asked for them to take into consideration there is windows on the side of the van the insurance know but not the dvla as its not a concersion.the office said it was still a van. i am very worried as son has only paseed test just over a year. he is not a boy racer does not drink and only uses the van to go training and college lock release, we have always felt safe with him driving the van as vision is good and it is a small engine and wont go fast uphill at all. main concern is what to say in court we are waiting a date. he has a full ike license as rides off road events at weekends and hopes to ride aroad this year. he never rides a roadbike. we will get a letter from his boss and local bike clu orginser he helps with for charcter reference. he has told all his friends about van speeds and 2 company directors who did not know. is there any advice what he can plead to not have to retest he is a nice lad 3rd year apprentice and has never given us grieve, he wil plead guilty it was a safety camera van at the ottom of a hill coming down. his details on his form stated exceeding speed limit for type of vehicle 76mph. any advice appreciated thanks

Posted by: Ocelot Sun, 30 Dec 2007 - 16:39
Post #230218

According to http://www.pepipoo.com/Magistrates_guidelines.htm,

"For travelling between 21 and 30 mph faster than a 20-30 mph speed limit, or between 26 and 35 mph faster than a 40-50 mph speed limit, or between 31 and 40 mph faster than a 60-70 mph speed limit, the guidelines suggest that the magistrates endorse with 6 penalty points or consider disqualification for between 14 and 56 days. "

So, unfortunately, at 76 in a 50 he is just on the 6 points limit (and hence having to retake his test). If he had been doing 75 he is likely to have gotten away with 4-5 points.

I don't think there is any discretion allowed in deciding whether to take away his licence if he pleades guilty to 76 in a 50, but there may be a chance of arguing that he was doing slightly less than 76, although still speeding. Howeevr, I'm not sure if he can do this if there is a speed van evidence stating his speed as 76 (If it is an officer's opinion of a speed without proof, you can sometimes do this - see sections 18-23 in http://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/enforcementguide/court/magistrates/hearing.htm).

Not much comfort I'm afraid, but someone else may be able to offer an alternative angle.

Posted by: borsicorn Sun, 30 Dec 2007 - 16:54
Post #230219

Having sat through 10 court hearings for my own case (acquitted) I sat in the public gallery of Hull Crown Court for the last 2, awaiting my turn.

I heard a case being appealed, having had a guilty verdict and 6 points applied by the magistrates.

The circumstances were very similar to your son's.

A guy with less than 2 years' experience had been given 6 points and his licence revoked by the DVLA.

On appeal, the Judge said there were special reasons and quashed the points.

Hope for you, then. Good luck.

Posted by: cheekycharlie Sun, 30 Dec 2007 - 23:08
Post #230287

You could calculate the speed yourself:

http://www.abd.org.uk/gatso_photo_checking.htm

I am sure that you might be able to knock a few mph off the speed.

There may be other ways like disputing the absolute accuracy of a camera

Posted by: andy_foster Mon, 31 Dec 2007 - 01:13
Post #230297

How long ago did he pass his bike test? If it was more than 2 years before the alleged offence he will not have his licence revoked for getting 6 points.

Posted by: afraid Mon, 31 Dec 2007 - 08:49
Post #230309

hello hope im replying in right place. it is less than 2 years for both tests August for bike 06 octoer 06 car. just wondered if the magistrates guidelines are just guidelines or is there any lenancy if he begs for forgiveness ie character references need to attend college on block release need for bike licence later this year to ride european rounds.i presume he will need to attend court as there is a chance licence will be revovoked and he is happy to defend himself. does anyone think there is a chance it may get thrown out before court as there were so many mistakes made by ticket office and we were initially offered fixed penalty. i know we are clutching at straws thankyou

Posted by: afraid Mon, 31 Dec 2007 - 10:38
Post #230328

SORRY to be a nuisance. i am also terrified he will be charged with dangerous careless driving as nip says exsess speed for type of vehicle, can the cps change the charges for the summons, there has been no mention of this on nip and it was a sunny day 11am one car in front of him downhill on hill which was double line single lane other side, thankyou

Posted by: afraid Mon, 31 Dec 2007 - 10:44
Post #230332

nip states exceeding speed limit for class of vehicle contrary to S86 89 RTRA 1984 T137 SORRY

Posted by: andy_foster Mon, 31 Dec 2007 - 19:52
Post #230422

Please visit the http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=2906, answer all the questions in the http://www.pepipoo.com/NIP_wizard.php, and the Wizard will then post its output back here to enable us to help you.

Posted by: afraid Tue, 1 Jan 2008 - 12:38
Post #230479

hello have tried to do wizard dont know if its worked, sorry computer old any advice greatly appreciated, is there any point begging for less points so no retest needed

Posted by: afraid Wed, 2 Jan 2008 - 12:59
Post #230655

sorry any suggestions cant seem to do wizard story as 1st post waiting summons made myself ill over this although son is the one going to court i feel for him can he beg for less points character reference need for licence to ride aroad later college lock relaese, any advice helpful could he get short term ban may be better than new test thanks

Posted by: The Rookie Wed, 2 Jan 2008 - 13:16
Post #230663

We need you to complete the wizard and have the output added to this thread to be able to give meaningful advice, the age of the computer shouldn't be relevant as its web based anyway...

Simon

Posted by: afraid Wed, 2 Jan 2008 - 16:47
Post #230736

sorry our insurance on vehicle is due near end jan,should i tell insurance about impending court case if we have not a date before insurance due will obviuosly tell as soon as we know fine points etc many thanks

Posted by: Bluedart Wed, 2 Jan 2008 - 16:56
Post #230741

What does the thread above say?

Posted by: nimh999 Wed, 2 Jan 2008 - 17:14
Post #230746

In the first instance you should follow this advice.


You should always tell the insurance company everything.

A pending conviction should not alter the premium they quote because until he admits the offence or is found guilty in court then he is innocent.

If and when he admits the offence or is found guilty is when it may affect the premium.

Posted by: Ocelot Sat, 5 Jan 2008 - 20:19
Post #231443

Sounds like there is some hope after all.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=26075

Posted by: afraid Sun, 6 Jan 2008 - 10:33
Post #231520

hello thankyou i still cant do wizard but may try again. he will go to court if summoned with references and plead not for six points so he does not need to retest. he could cope with a short ban it is mainly his bike licence he is concerned about losing for a while if he retests as later this year he hopes to ride some european off road events he needs his licence for, he was only just in the summons bracket and before the ticket office realized they had made a error and it was a van they offered a fixed penalty it was a disaster with paperwork before they evidentually got it right, i rang the ticket office this week and the paperwork is still with them they said it had to go to the traffic police and then the cps next offense was 24th sept, insurance due soon have told insurance of pending conviction and they said until we know what he will get there cant be a increase, thankyou

Posted by: afraid Wed, 16 Jan 2008 - 12:24
Post #233771

hello sorry to bring this around again, still waiting for summons dreading post each day feeling very ill, son accepts he will be punished but hopes to beg for 1 less point or short term ban mailnly does not want to lose bike licence as although does not ride on road he competes well at british off road events and may get a chance to compete in world event in summer time to retake test may hinder this does anyone think this may get thrown out before summons as paperwork was very misleading until eventually right i think. last letter from ticket office was not signed just printed name as well im proably clutching at straws think i should have put it all in writing insead of over the phone . hope some of this makes sense, i feel on verge of cracking up which is crazy!! but nerves shot to pot

Posted by: afraid Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 15:26
Post #234050

hello will make this last post i hope as must be annoying people, does anyone think as son was in van vito 108 which is 2600kg he could have his chrage changed to careless dangerous driving as it was a van going 76mph in a 60mph but he should have been going 50mph, the thought of this terrifies me, we have insured on van insurance and his full licence says he can drive up to 3500 GVW So he is well covered, still waiting with dread daily post was talking to chap we are insuring van with today who is disputing his case from august, any thoughts on pleading for 5 points or short ban SORRY TO BE A NUISANCE just so many things going around in head.

Posted by: spanner345 Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 15:46
Post #234056

Try nip wizard again, use additional questions button when it appears, this may help.

By the way, the vito sport is an mpv, does this make the 108 a car based van. If so 60mph may apply.

Posted by: jobo Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 15:52
Post #234058

Hi you wont get a great deal back untill you fill in the NIp wizard

Theres very little chance of them changing the speeding to careless dangerous driving as there is no such offence its either careless or dangerous

careless has no more and possibly less points than the speeding

and dangerous is very hard to prove and very unlikly for this speed especialy when they seem to have you bang to right for the speeding anyway.

ive looked through you thread and have no idear what method of speed detection was used against you there may be other avenues of defence.

have you checked the speed limit for the van is as stated by the powers that be

Posted by: afraid Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 16:35
Post #234064

thanks for reply will try to do wizard again but can fill it but not get any further

Posted by: spanner345 Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 16:38
Post #234065

additional information button

Posted by: afraid Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 16:45
Post #234066

cant get into wizard will try later or am speed detection was camera van at bottom of hill in daylight. first nips came back as moter vehicle in 60limit offered fixed penalty then clerical error letter said they had realized was van so couldnt qualify for fixed penalty they already had sent me, i cant help but think they may have realized as i phoned them to ask if they received signed nip ack and must have mentioned van which made them recheck dont know, after 3 wrong nips finally sent right one, thanks everyone

Posted by: jobo Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 17:51
Post #234083

Van Drivers ...

Many van drivers get caught out because they do not know the law. Make sure you know the national speed limits that your vehicle is restricted to

• If your van has a maximum laden weight (Gross Vehicle Weight) of over 2 tonnes (2020kg) then you are restricted to lower speed limits on single carriageways and dual carriageways.

i read this and it depends if you were on a dual carriageway or singe

Posted by: jobo Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 17:54
Post #234084

sorry that didnt come out properly

what it says is the speed limit for vans on single carrageway roads is 50 but sixty on dual carriageways

Posted by: jobo Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 17:58
Post #234087

expert help needed

There are issues with them issuing 4 nips , the final one ( at least) im assuming after the 14 day period they have to send them.

I dont know if this invalidated them( as the speeding still stands its just the amount over that has changed).

can one of the legal experts comment please

Posted by: Phil Littler Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 18:05
Post #234091

OP says 60 limit so I'd assume it was single carriageway NSL as they originally thought it was a car. We'll have to wait for either some more info from afraid or expert help I think Jobo.

I guess the NIP wizard won't help now - not if there's four NIPs in total?

Phil

Posted by: afraid Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 20:02
Post #234129

sorry to confuse everyone 1st nip in husands name reg keeper for exceeding 60 limit im moter vehiclereplied as thought originally i was driving in my name nip came shortly after in my name for above offenseconditional fixed penalty offer sent in my namenext day letter from ticket office sayingwith no explanation this offense can not be dealt with by fixed penalty and has been refereed to traffic prosecution unit i was asked to sign new nip but it was the same offense as above again, i rang up and they said the nip was wrong but could eventually be amendeed but it was going forward for prosecution as 2nd check had realized was goods vehicleto our horror we realized son was driving that day and time was when he was driving not me. we rang ticket office immediately they said i had to put it in writing which did, had a letter saying no more action against me but new nip issued to son with no right offense on exceeding speed limit for vehicle classstill waiting for summons, if he was in a car would oviously got fixed penalty, he has told loads of people about van speeds which are etched in our minds now not many new including 2 company directors and although this is no excuse he hopes to use this in mitigation in begging not for 6 ponts. sorry to go on and on wont post again unless any complications still clutching at straws may be chucked out, he was insured to drive and on his licence as mentioned can drive up to 3500 thanks for all your help he will probaly plead guilty attend and beg

Posted by: afraid Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 09:18
Post #235107

hello can anyone tell me what happens after refereel made to traffic police for prosecuction,, is it the police who decides if the case will go forward to court or cps or are they the same. they may find our case complicated by misleading nips and a offer of a fixed penalty they retracted i dont know, it is 4 months from offense so loads of time yet, if by some miracle we dont hear by after 6 months is it worth ringing ticket office or local courts or is it best to ignore, i thought about ringing courts yesterday to see if any info laid but dont want to stir things up, part of me wants to hear now but could do with extra time to keep sons licence if it does get revoked , also can dvla change points if they disagree with magistrates decision THANKYOU

Posted by: nemo Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 09:58
Post #235109

Supposedly, the police investigate the alleged offence and gather evidence etc. Its the Crown Prosecution Service that decides whether or not to prosecute people in court.


If your son gets a week or two beyond 6 months from the date of the alleged offence without receiving a summons, you could phone the court which deals within motoring matters in the area he was 'pinged' and ask whether any informations have been laid in his name.


No. The DVLA cannot overrule a Magistrates' decision.

Posted by: afraid Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 10:13
Post #235113

thankyou, do they let you know if not going to prosecute thankyou

Posted by: nemo Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 10:23
Post #235115

Generally not, no.

Posted by: afraid Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 15:38
Post #235170

sorry last post is information laid in court when the police are gathering evidence or not to the final stage when a date is set, thought about phoning court but no point if they do not know until last stage

Posted by: nemo Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 16:18
Post #235174

The court will not be able to advise you whether the police intend to proceed this matter until either an information has been laid or the offence 'times out' (6 months).

Posted by: afraid Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 16:28
Post #235178

thankyou so much nemo for your help, i did call all local courts no info laid as yet still loads of time though, as you see i am a paranoid mother who has been deeply affected by all this nerves shot to pieces son knows he has done wrong and has learnt from this and just hope the judge will look at his chracter and decide for himself if it gets to this cant help but think it is unfair it may go to court as initially was offered fixed penalty until the ticket office realized and he is just in summons bracket althoough understand everyone should be treated the same, he is a hard working 18 year old ambitious especially with his bike riding skills,i promise to not ask put any more posts on here as probaly driving people mad off to doctors next week for calming tablets!!! anyone would think he had murdered someone sorry again reassurance and help appreciated

Posted by: afraid Sun, 9 Mar 2008 - 10:21
Post #244541

hello sorry to bring this up again. its 2 weeks to 6 months i presume not to ring courts yet as there is still time for them to lay info, i continue to worry for son can magistrates deviate from 6 points and give 5 or must they give 6. we were thinking he should go for begging for short term ban does anyone have any ideas of how long this would be, he could cope for a little while as although he occasionally drives work van he manly is inside 3rd year apprentice, his main worry is not having a licence for riding offroad he is being selected for world round in july and rides british events he is very good at, it is not speed events but endurance, having to take his test again would take some long and i dont really think he will learn from this, he is sensible anyway but has learnt a great deal from the last 6 months and im sure wont make the same mistake again, anyway sorry to keep on

Posted by: Pete D Sun, 9 Mar 2008 - 11:50
Post #244555

What date did he pass his bike Test ? was that more than 2 years before the date of the offence. Pete D

Posted by: Chas820 Sun, 9 Mar 2008 - 11:51
Post #244556

Stop panicking,you have to wait to see if this times out,don`t phone anyone yet,you don`t want to highlight your case to anyone.Softly softly

Posted by: afraid Sun, 9 Mar 2008 - 12:02
Post #244558

Posted by: afraid Sun, 9 Mar 2008 - 12:06
Post #244559

thanks wont ring yet he passed his bike test august 2006 so is still within revocation time, dont mean to panick but will be glad when all over whatever consequences so can move on, still think pleading for short ban will best scenario, thanks to everyone for reading my mad stories.

Posted by: afraid Mon, 10 Mar 2008 - 11:07
Post #244727

sorry does anyone think magistrates will come down harder as offense is excess speed for type of vehicle vito van with windows on one panel and in back. i feel myself getting very worked up again silly me

Posted by: The Rookie Mon, 10 Mar 2008 - 13:30
Post #244755

The amount over the limit is what is relevant, type/style of van is not (unless its a dual puprose vehicle which is legally a car if its under 2,500Kg's)

Simon

Posted by: afraid Mon, 10 Mar 2008 - 14:27
Post #244773

thanks when we get summons is it worth saying could he please be considered for short term ban as i presume less than 6 points for 76 in a 50 vehicle is unlikely he will attend and defend himself with letters from employer as can now drive works vehicles if needed test drives etc needs to travel to college as third year apprenticehip letter from organiser of local motercycle club he helps set up tracks and need for licence to represent country in offroad motercycle events he does' he has also spent loads of time talking to friends and companys aout van speeds,he is truely sorry for what he has put his dad sister and myself through as well as i have been in a awful state with stress and worry, we all support him and will attend court with him what he does as a hobby as well is a big part of all our lives sorry this is last post i will post before the summons arrives, coming up 6 months now may phone court a few days after thankyou

Posted by: afraid Thu, 13 Mar 2008 - 12:35
Post #245443

just a thought how complicated is a newton hearing can he plead guilty then on day see cps and say he didnt think was doing thar speed but admits to speeding, son said straight away he felt he wasnt at 76mph he was going down steep hill if he was going up it they would never have caught him as small engine means struggles up any hills, dont know whever it may wind them up more and distact away from he hopes for short ban or miracle less points thanks

Posted by: The Rookie Fri, 14 Mar 2008 - 11:01
Post #245680

A Newton hearing can be easy or very complicated, a lot depends on the CPS, they may challenege you to 'prove' a lower speed and an adjournmnet made to allow the video to be supplied and checked, or they may accept it on the day....

Simon

Posted by: afraid Fri, 14 Mar 2008 - 12:13
Post #245711

thanks as he is at their mercy i think it may be better just to plead guilty and beg, its 6 months easter monday so if nothing heard after that may give local courts a call thanks

Posted by: saracengb Fri, 14 Mar 2008 - 20:34
Post #245829

Just remember the information only needs to be laid within the 6 month period. Summons can be served after this time. I'd give it a week after the "due date" before making any contact. Not a sure fire guarantee but worth holding back.

HTH

Posted by: afraid Tue, 25 Mar 2008 - 16:16
Post #247890

hello 6 months is up but looking at local cases in papers the system is very slow down here, just wondered if anyone had any thoughts there is a free driving lecture course over 3 wednesday nights coming up down here. does anyone think might help sons case if he can say he attended, i may go with him as sounds useful and is free, i am getting more and more in a state also does anyone think he will get a worse punishment as its excess speed for class of vehicle 76 in a 60 but should have been 50, i think i am going to have a nervous breakdown soon, just want it over with

Posted by: The Rookie Wed, 26 Mar 2008 - 10:39
Post #247997

Anything he can do that 'looks good' is not going to hurt, the summons will normally arrive within the month of the 6 months...post back if/when it does!

Simon

Posted by: afraid Thu, 27 Mar 2008 - 08:29
Post #248217

ONE MORE QUESTION DOES ANYONE KNOW IF INSURANCE WILL BE GREATER FOR SHORT TERM BAN OR POINTS OR RETAKE TEST IF GETS 6 POINTS. SON WANTS TO PUSH IN MITAGATION FOR 5 POINTS. I WORRY INSURANCE WILL BE CANCELLED FOR HIM HE IS A NAMED DRIVER WHO ALTHOUGH DOES NOT USE VEHICLE MUCH ONCE OR TWICE A WEEK THIS STILL GIVES SOME INDEPENDENCE, SORRY

Posted by: The Rookie Thu, 27 Mar 2008 - 12:10
Post #248268

Run some dummy quotes through the comparison sites like confused.com, moneysupermarket.com tescocompare.com to get an idea of what will be best for him.

Simon

Posted by: afraid Thu, 3 Apr 2008 - 15:26
Post #250108

SORRY DOES ANYONE KNOW CODE FOR SHORT TERM DISQUALIFICATION SO CAN RUN SOME QUOTES PLEASE, still waiting with dread for summons know its quite slow here from reading cases in local press, just want it over now so we can all move on thanks to everyone

Posted by: afraid Fri, 11 Apr 2008 - 07:54
Post #251996

HELLO DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON HOW LONG A SHORT TERM BAN WOULD BE IN THIS CASE HE WAS JUST IN SUMMONS LIMIT I THINK OR CHANCES OF ASKING FOR 5 POINTS TO AVOID REVOCATION OF LICENCE PLEASE

Posted by: afraid Fri, 11 Apr 2008 - 08:03
Post #251997

SORRY ONE LAST THING IS THERE ANY CHANCE WHEN WE ARRIVE IN COURT WE CAN ASK TO SEE CPS AND SUGGEST SLIGHTLY LOWER SPEED AS SON REALLY DID NOT FEEL HE WAS THAT FAST AOUT 70MPH

Posted by: afraid Fri, 11 Apr 2008 - 11:56
Post #252054

sorry again just reading thread about licence being revoked and wondered if son would be alloweed to give mitagation against getting 6 points if he told magistrates that he would have licence revoked and ask for less points or short ban instead . he is despirate to keep licence this is one offense 1st and sure to be last offense sorry to be a pain thanks

Posted by: The Rookie Tue, 15 Apr 2008 - 11:11
Post #252992

As long as he had passed his car test more than 2 years before the alleged offence date, he won't have his licence revoked (date of passing bike test not relevant)... he can ask for less than 6 points or a short ban, see this thread as an example... http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=23502&st=0

Simon

Posted by: afraid Tue, 15 Apr 2008 - 12:58
Post #253024

sorry again will have passed bike test 2 years this august which should count as 1st test and car tset 2 years this october soo still in 1st two years until august, still have not got summons but very slow down here, have you any thoughts on what short term ban he could get, i am now close to nervous breakdown this whole thing has made me so ill despite this was the 1st time he has ever caused me any bother genuine nice young boy, sorry to sound so emotional

Posted by: The Rookie Wed, 16 Apr 2008 - 11:55
Post #253354

A short ban will usually be 14-56 days, exact length they decide to give (if any) I wouldn't want to guess at!

Simon

Posted by: afraid Wed, 16 Apr 2008 - 13:51
Post #253394

ththanks again hoping it will be at low end as was just in summons terrority. on mitagation form if he feels this in as well as he is going to attend does sometimes if the cps see this do they settle instead of goinf to court

Posted by: southpaw82 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 - 14:08
Post #253400

The CPS has no option to settle out of court. They can either go ahead with the case or discontinue.

Posted by: nemo Wed, 16 Apr 2008 - 14:20
Post #253403

Are you certain that a summons is in the pipeline ?

Posted by: afraid Wed, 16 Apr 2008 - 14:25
Post #253411

have not receieved it but spoke to someone in courts a while ago and they said it was proviionally booked for end of may so take it still plenty of time to hear, we all want to deal with it and move on son feeling strong about mitagation and hoping for less points ot stb but i am in pieces sorry

Posted by: jdfi Wed, 16 Apr 2008 - 16:42
Post #253445

Next time you let a kid drive a vehicle, make sure they know the speed limits that apply to it. Even if this was a car in a road where 60 applies (single carriageway NSL for example) your son was doing over 70.

In your very first post you say



With the help of other more experienced members of this forum, I wonder whether we can argue that this is actually two seperate offences, and that the NIP of the "exceeding 50 limit" offence arrived late?

Are you sure that the "maximum authorised mass" of the vehicle is 2.7 tonnes? Can you verify that with the dealer?

Posted by: afraid Thu, 17 Apr 2008 - 07:58
Post #253618

hello yes he of course would be still speeding if in car and we should and he should have known van speed limits we are not using this as a excuse, the van would struggle going up hill to reach any speed limits as it has a small engine, there is alot of confusion over vans as ours has windos in side and we were told by a friend who is a traffic cop that this means car lomits apply but now now this was not correct, we have talked to big local buisnessmen who run vans for their employers who were not aware of speed restriction son was driiving down large hill at time camera van in distance so sorryregarding 2nd nip letter from ticket office said it was an administation error they did not realixe it was a van at first so that cancelled out the original offer of fixed penalty although now i think at the time we should have hung out for confusion of what we were being prosecuted foranyway seems to late now son genuinally sorry has learnt from this especially as it has made me ill worrying and we hope it is settled soon thanks to everyone who has responded sofar

Posted by: afraid Tue, 22 Apr 2008 - 15:46
Post #255015

hello just heard case end may local court so will have to grin and bear it abit longer, any words of advice will be appreciated; he will get suited and booted letter from employer stating near end apprentichip etc and letter from local organiser of off road club he helps with, state he is hoping to e selected to ride for country in world round in gb and in greece in septemer, has learnt from mistake etc taught others spoke to lots of people and effect on parents ie i have nearly gone mad with worry, we support him at all he does work etc and attend and attend all his events which he has potential to do really well at this year, thats all we can do beg forgiveness pray for phraps 5 points (just into 6 limit) or stban can he write notes to read out on day as he will be so nervous, apparently does not have to attend but obviously this needs to e done to avoid revocation, he will 2 months of 2 years, he has really learnt the hard way from this and pray they will look kindly at him thanks again for reading my ramble sorry

Posted by: afraid Fri, 25 Apr 2008 - 13:51
Post #255878

after this will go away i promise until after case, please could anyone let us know if the clark at court will explain to magistrates about the fact if he gets six points licence will be rovoked and then let him explain why he needs to keep locence or is it straight to him to say, another month away to worry myself sick

Posted by: 7159keith Fri, 25 Apr 2008 - 14:23
Post #255890

Have you actually received a summons yet?

Posted by: jdfi Fri, 25 Apr 2008 - 14:24
Post #255891

Its certainly worth him being honest and saying that he believes that one option is that the court can order him to retake his driving test on the grounds of being a young driver, and that he made a mistake and he's sorry.

Try not to worry about this - and do keep coming back to ask questions if you need.

Even if the worst happens it may only take about a month to do a resit test (bearing in mind deadlines etc). Look on the bright side - neither of you will ever forget van speed limits again!

Seriously though, warn anyone else you know who drives a van.

Posted by: nemo Fri, 25 Apr 2008 - 14:26
Post #255892

I think you had the right idea in your last but one post..

On the day, he should arrive at the court good and early. He should try and find the relevant usher and introduce himself. A good impression made at this point could help two fold. Firstly, the usher may call his case good and early and secondly, the usher may well have a quiet word with the Magistrates beforehand and say what a decent chap your son seems..

It is very important that your son dresses smartly (dark suit, plain shirt, plain tie, dark socks, no visible tattoos or jewellery, clean shoes etc etc); that he is polite to the Magistrates (by standing when they enter they court and when he is speaking or being spoken to, by addressing them individually as 'Sir' or 'Madam' or collectively as 'Your Worships', etc); and that he appears contrite and truly remorseful for his actions.

Once the prosecution have had their say (and the plea has been confirmed), your son will be asked if he has anything to say before the Magistrates decide upon his sentence. This will give him the opportunity to offer mitigation and regret at his actions and allow him to explain his circumstances (off road club, representing GB etc). He can detail to the Magistrates the consequences for him (and others) of a licence revocation and, despite the fact that he acknowledges that he must face his punishment, respectfully request that they consider a penalty which would not result in revocation.

If he comes across polite and remorseful, aside from separating himself from the usual detritus which passes through the court system, he stands a much greater chance of the Magistrates being sympathetic with their sentence.

Posted by: afraid Fri, 25 Apr 2008 - 14:48
Post #255896

thankyou so much really grateful

Posted by: afraid Fri, 25 Apr 2008 - 16:37
Post #255915

jdfi sorry we have told loads of people now about van speeds including 2 company directors who run vans for employers, we also know some traffic police who always insisted we could do car speeds as windoes in side etc the police state there is huge confusion over this thamks for advice though

Posted by: Zed Victor One Fri, 25 Apr 2008 - 22:28
Post #256035

Not sure what the confusion is these limits have applied for some years although it's only become relevant in the last few years with the advent of better performing diesel engines.

Sadly if this is your first time in a court your likely to see what are commonly refered to as 'oxygen thieves', you'll know what I mean when you see them.

Nemo's advice is spot on, the courts are so used to seeing the above type of people that it's a pleasant surprise for them when they see someone who's smart, clean and polite. It may not save your son's licence but at least it will hopefully stop them pre-judging him as another no hoper wasting the courts time.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll come back and let us know how you got on.

Posted by: afraid Sat, 26 Apr 2008 - 07:05
Post #256057

lastly he does not need to attend court can send mitagation y post but i presume to plead for a short term ban or 5 points it would be etter to attend

Posted by: Captain A Sat, 26 Apr 2008 - 07:35
Post #256059

Whilst he can send in a letter of mitigation, I would strongly recommend attending, as it shows respect to the court. I would also suggest that he writes down his mitigation request, and that you go through it with him to make sure that it is succinct, relevant, humble and courteous (I'm not suggesting that he wouldn't be - writing it down helps!).

Posted by: afraid Sat, 26 Apr 2008 - 10:43
Post #256082

many thanks he wants to attend and we will obviously go with him

Posted by: afraid Sat, 26 Apr 2008 - 10:55
Post #256086

can he write mitagation on form to send back as well as mitagtion on day

Posted by: The Rookie Mon, 28 Apr 2008 - 11:39
Post #256464

Yes........if so he should refer to it when he starts "as you will see on the letter I sent..."

Simon

Posted by: afraid Mon, 28 Apr 2008 - 14:21
Post #256542

thanks one last thing how on average how long should he talk for and is worth in writtn mitagation ssying about confusion over original nips thanks

Posted by: nemo Mon, 28 Apr 2008 - 14:27
Post #256546

As long as it takes him to say whatever it is he plans to say..


No.

Posted by: afraid Mon, 28 Apr 2008 - 14:46
Post #256550

thanks

Posted by: afraid Tue, 29 Apr 2008 - 13:25
Post #256769

summons arrived am offense clear to see exceeding goods vehicle speed limit 76mph in 50 limit for type of vehicle, case to be heard end of may,states dont need to attend but as i have said he will, will send form back asap as says earlt plea reduces penalty fee etc, in mitagation on form just thought he could write thanks for giving chance to attend,would like to attend to mitagate himself so can be offered employment at end of apprenticeship and represent country in endurance events, and would like to plead although accepts will be punished he would like to plead to avoid licence revocation, it says offense attracts penalty points but on day presume he ask for short term an or less pointsalthough glad we have it in writing the worry is making me so illhe will have letters from employer local endurance event orhaniser and someone we know from traffic police who will say how he helps at their eventsmany thanks

Posted by: afraid Wed, 7 May 2008 - 12:50
Post #258440

hello just wondered if we got to court and despite pleading the mags gave 6 points after we pleaded for stb or preferebly 5 points 76mph just in limit do we get chance to appeal or is it then all cut and try, does anyone know what type of stb to expect for exceeding van speed 76 in 50 . hope he may get 5 or a miracle 4 points if we can mitagate well , sorry

Posted by: The Rookie Wed, 7 May 2008 - 14:03
Post #258463

Just making sure the Magistartes are aware than 6 points will see his licenec revoked should be enough to make sure they give 5 or less, they are only human (well most of them) and I can't see them wanting to inflict what is effectively a totting ban for the one offence.

If they do give 6 you have reasonable grounds to appeal the sentance (within 21 days) and he can drive while the appeal progresses, but there are no guarentees.....

Simon

Posted by: afraid Wed, 7 May 2008 - 17:23
Post #258512

thanks again he is really going to plead for less points, myself and his dad go with him obviously although i might be better when they sentence him going outside as worried i will get upset, anyway thanks for all your advice

Posted by: jobo Wed, 7 May 2008 - 17:33
Post #258516

dont go outside a sobbing mother might work quite well

Posted by: afraid Wed, 7 May 2008 - 18:15
Post #258523

i understand what you mean i will try and hold myself together but after waiting 8 months for this date and the effect of it all on all of us including 16 year old daughter who adores her big brother i know i will look petrified.looking through summons bundle i thought it was funny that they have included all the nips which were sent wrong ie saying it was a car in 60 limit before they realized mistake and eventually put in right just wish i had written a letter back then about all the confusion instead of phoning---- oh well only a few more weeks and we can move on plenty to do and races to win for son in that time THANKYOU

Posted by: jdfi Mon, 12 May 2008 - 07:01
Post #259423

If I were you, I would use the fact that even the police initially thought 60mph applied to the van as evidence that the government needs to do more to promote the lower speed limits for vans.

Posted by: afraid Mon, 12 May 2008 - 13:35
Post #259509

does anyone else have any thoughts on saying about initial nips. the safety camera partnership always said it was a admin error they thought it was a car, not much to go on in summons bunble but all nips enclosed. if he did mention it thought could say something likeyou will see the notices we received initially were for car speeds which were initially misleading but on liasing with the safety camera team their errors were put right. any thoughts would be grateful or should we forget this also thought would say tempary lack of concentration picking up speed going downhillps friend from police says sooner than later van speeds will be same as cars

Posted by: afraid Thu, 15 May 2008 - 13:52
Post #260330

sorry mad me again if son is lucky enough to get less than 6 points will the date on licence go back to sept when offense commitedthanks

Posted by: afraid Thu, 15 May 2008 - 13:55
Post #260334

1 last thing does anyone know how long we will be waiting on average, time is for 9.40 thought wed get there at 9 and see all people we need and phraps ask to near front og quue husband needs to return to work sorry

Posted by: nemo Thu, 15 May 2008 - 14:01
Post #260336

Yes. Any points awarded to your son would commence from the date of the offence.

The points would then count for totting purposes for a period of 3 years from that date, could be removed from his licence after 4 years and must be declared to insurers for 5 years.

Posted by: nemo Thu, 15 May 2008 - 14:08
Post #260339

They say arrive at 0940 because the court commences hearing cases at 10:00.

No one can predict how long you will have to wait until your case is heard; it may be minutes, it may not be until the afternoon.

I'd suggest politely introducing yourself to the relevant Usher, explain that the whole procedure is very new to you and your son, that you are all nervous and could he talk through exactly what will happen during the trial. If you make a good impression (and manage to separate yourselves from the courts' usual 'clientele'), the Usher is not likely to see you waiting for too long.

Posted by: afraid Thu, 15 May 2008 - 14:27
Post #260358

thanks again. we have told insurance of pending case and as soon as know what is happening we will inform them. my worst fear is he has to have a stb or retest they will cancel policy and it will be harder to put him back on, he is a named driver on husbands policy and so am i he uses van to go training twice a week, never mind i hope and pray for 5 points im having a bad day today most start thinking positive thasnks nemo

Posted by: afraid Thu, 15 May 2008 - 14:54
Post #260363

this i promise will be last post until end month when will post ack outcomewill anyone now be looking at sons case files like we had we had to send a form back to say he was pleading guilty and one to say his income, on a apprentice wage his income is rubish but this week from next month he will get a rise does he need to declare this now, just wondered if any legal buffs will be looking at case again before court datethanks from a mad mother

Posted by: The Rookie Thu, 15 May 2008 - 15:20
Post #260376

You really need to declare what his salary is on the day of the trial, I'm not sure of how the law views it (if its even covered) but that would seem the logical thing to use!

Simon

Posted by: afraid Thu, 15 May 2008 - 15:40
Post #260388

ok no problemsi am a little terrified have just been reading on safespeed forums one post that sAYS the goverment will not let magistrates give 5 instead of 6 points when guidelines indicate 6 should be given really worrried now sorry also we obviously didnt know he was going to get rise which comes in in june thanks

Posted by: afraid Thu, 15 May 2008 - 17:53
Post #260430

please is there anyone who could advise on new drivers act and goverment can mags give 5 points when 76mph warrents 6 if means non revocation of licence with good mitagation thanks

Posted by: Teufel Thu, 15 May 2008 - 19:21
Post #260439

make it clear that 6 is a ban - tell them yr son is very contrite
and has learnt his lesson and that with 5 he will stick to the law and enjoy life

mags have the power and the offence is within the guidleines for this

Posted by: afraid Thu, 15 May 2008 - 19:24
Post #260442

very grateful for this

Posted by: afraid Mon, 19 May 2008 - 10:34
Post #261050

me again a complicated one the offense was septemer insurance was renewed january we told them about pending court case and brokers said that until they knew punishment premieum would be based on no points, just wondered if son got stb or 5 points hopefully does anyone have any experience on if insurance company will increase premium now wait to next january or i dread cancel it, he is a named driver as insurance aware only uses vehicle to go training once or twice a week and help in long journeys. court next week im so scared work are just writing a letter for him, do you think mitagation of work and riding for country and revocation if 6 points will be enough to secure less points or stb im paranoid i know thanks

Posted by: bama Mon, 19 May 2008 - 10:49
Post #261052

waht does the policy (or any 'physical' terms and condition documents that you have)say about when you should declare them ?

Posted by: afraid Thu, 22 May 2008 - 13:38
Post #261943

have helped son write letter to read out it is 2 sides a4 paper he is going to type it out on computer so he can read his terrile writing, i think it will take 3-4 mins to read out have just said about his job representing country all work and training involved help from ourselves employer sponseres etc, i thought it only right to say although disapointed in him we have always been there for him and the fact i have been really ill about whole situation, conclude with although he knows he will be punished cpuld he plead for shorter stb or less points to keep his job and represent country, although he says he will be fine i am worried he will break down but if does he does , i do elieve justice will be done y avoiding 6 points as its his 1st offense but no we will see on day. from a very scared paroniod but caring mum

Posted by: Micawber Thu, 22 May 2008 - 19:02
Post #262030

Mrs Afraid I've been following your case from the beginning.
Unfortunately I can't help you as I don't have the knowledge or experience of the learned posters here but I would just like to wish you and your son well and hope that you get the result that you want.
All the best.

Posted by: afraid Fri, 23 May 2008 - 08:12
Post #262103

thankyou for support

Posted by: The Rookie Fri, 23 May 2008 - 11:43
Post #262152

I think you are on good grounds, but your in the hands of the mag's! Best of luck to you both!

Simon

Posted by: afraid Fri, 23 May 2008 - 11:49
Post #262156

thanks i really appreciate this site, one last thing until i post results next wednesday night will the mags in court have more evidence than we have ie there is nothing in bundle to say weather conditions busyness of road etc i wondered if as he is pleading guilty they would have same details as us thanks

Posted by: The Rookie Fri, 23 May 2008 - 11:54
Post #262157

No, the only information that will be made avaialbe to them is whats in the summons pack and what is said in court, no witnesses will be there, so that will be your son, the CPS prosecuter may say something either in support or contradiction to what your son says (in respect of the sentence), but the FACTS will still be fixed by whats already submitted.

Simon

Posted by: afraid Fri, 23 May 2008 - 12:21
Post #262169

that does not sound right. what i mean is does the cps have the overall choice in sentence, can they disagree with mags and also if mags go out of room to confer about sentence does cps person go with them thanksps do you think if i go in courtroom with him and husband at end if they go and confer i will be alloweed out of room as i dont think i can bear that final bit

Posted by: Zed Victor One Sat, 24 May 2008 - 21:50
Post #262419

CPS do not have say in the sentence (they can aappeal if they consider it too lenient but this is usually only done for very serious criminal offences) which is set by the magistrates according to their guidelines, if there is a recess whilst the magistrates decide on their verdict and sentence the CPS do not go with them. Once the case has been heard then yes you should be allowed to leave the court room during any recess, if there is no recess and you do not wish to be present then you can still leave the court but you'll need to be a bit sharp on your toes.

Posted by: afraid Sun, 25 May 2008 - 09:55
Post #262458

thankyou hoping mags will use guidelines as guidelines and give 5 points or st thanks

Posted by: roythebus Sun, 25 May 2008 - 10:26
Post #262465

Hmmm, nice to see there are still born optimists on here who think justice will be done and your son will have a fair trial. My limited experience of the legal system is usually that the CPS will lie, the mags will take more notice of them and do what they have to do. The trial may be far from fair, but trying to prove it is another matter. Good luck anyway.

Posted by: afraid Sun, 25 May 2008 - 10:37
Post #262467

sorry very upset now he is not denying anything will admit speeding and just try and keep licence to save retest, alot of optimism given to us up to now and examples where people in first 2 years have avoided revocation, surely the cps will only say out charges which he will admit two we will try our best

Posted by: Zed Victor One Sun, 25 May 2008 - 23:01
Post #262547

My limited experience of 28 years with our legal system is that more than a fair share of defendants lie and then carp on about how unjust the system is when they are not believed.

The CPS merely present the evidence that they are provided with on behalf of the prosecution, they will rarely in the case of minor road traffic offences make any application in relation to the sentence. The magistrates are usually guided by the clerk to the court as to the scope available to them in relation to an offence and will also apply the guidelines set out for them.

afraid, I would suggest that you remain hopeful, as opposed to overly optimistic, I don't believe it's the corrupt facist state that roythebus thinks it is, at least I hope it isn't.

Posted by: afraid Mon, 26 May 2008 - 08:35
Post #262568

thanks zed victortalking to people some say mags already have sentence written down efore the trial egins our friend in traffic police says the guidelines are onlt that and they cann deviate either way if they choose,i will remain hopeful i personally feel if he could 5 ponts as just in 6 limit by 1mph or shorter short term ban this would be fair as 1st offense etc but who knows, i think son will be bitterly disaponinted if has to restest but we will support him whateveri have got a £25 brilliant tesco suit for him to wear he has written short but consis letter to read which gives no excuses but deep regret and consequences, he has a letter from work and from organiser of motercycle club he helps with, plus our support me probably crying in ackground and 16 year old sister at home who is equally upset as adores her big bruv, no more we can do dout if will appeal if gets 6 points as need to get on and retest,,,,, thanks to everyone who has shown support last 8 months it would e nice to hear how youngster in 1st 2 years 77 in 50 got on somewhen will post results good or bad weds pm

Posted by: afraid Mon, 26 May 2008 - 11:03
Post #262591

sorry looking on safespeed site it indicates magistrates cannot give 5 instead of 6 points if driver under 2 years driving as its goverment wish for licence revocation, we are only just in 6 point land, if this is right phraps we should push for short term ban instead sorry

Posted by: afraid Tue, 27 May 2008 - 14:20
Post #262840

before i go away forever anyone out there got any idea what short term ban may e for 76 in 50vehicle thinking even if full amount will be less than test retake time, is it done on percentage of speed

Posted by: The Rookie Wed, 28 May 2008 - 12:28
Post #263072

They cannot give 2 points for an offence so it comes to a total of 5, but they can use their judegment to set the penalty for one speeding offence as they see fit, 3 pts to 6pts or a ban...

ZV1, I agree the CPS rarely make an application for speeding, but its always possible they MAY, especially given what afraids son will be asking for.

Simon

Posted by: afraid Wed, 28 May 2008 - 13:16
Post #263090

hello back in one piecewell result 5 points thank goodness. i could not go in with son as we were told to go and sit in on end of previous case which was a 27 year old already on 9 points and now had offence 63 in 30 he was unemployed for ages had worked for 3 months as estate agent and said had to help elderly grandparents he had a letter from work to say he would lose licence if got ban, his father also got up and defended him the mags went away and came back and said mitigation not good enough and he had 6 month ban, he was told to pay 250 pounds he said he couldnt asnd they told him to sell his car to pay in next 6 weeks, he seemed decent chap and his mother was very upset so that put me off so husband only went in and i waited in waiting roomhe had a lovely letter from organiser of local motercycle club saying how he helps out and a letter from work saying he needed licence for job and how they had discussed speeding issues with him , son read from letter saying how sorry he was about job motersport and how he had talked to others to try and avoid speeding husband saud he did very well, wore cheap but smart suit and black shoes, they did ask him if his work could accomadate short ban and son said preferebly not, one magistrate said he didnt think would lose licence if given 6 points but the lawyer in there put him write, 200 pound fine paid which is better than retestthanks to everyone on here especiaaly rookie nemo zed victor etc for all their supportgood luck to everyone especially everyone in similiar circumstances and in 1st 2 years as young people deserve chancesps there was one poor old chap in there who was a tramp worldly goods in black sack who had been in cells for drunk and disordly with 400 prevoius convictions he walked out to look for somewhere to sayps had to wait 2 hours about 20 on list only saw about 4 cases in whole time there 2 for totting up and one youngster who said to us was on a ban but had got caught driving in car park, usher really nice lady who explained what might happen and even let us look around courtroom before started she offered, security man present who was nice enough cheap coffee machine though THANKS AGAIN please let us no if we can help anyon in similiar circumstances

Posted by: Micawber Wed, 28 May 2008 - 14:18
Post #263102

Well done Mrs afraid and son!
You can get on with your lives again.
Those Tesco suits work wonders.......I'm off to get one!

Posted by: afraid Wed, 28 May 2008 - 14:37
Post #263105

thanks above and thanks for previous post

Posted by: The Rookie Fri, 30 May 2008 - 01:36
Post #263488

Well done, glad to see that justice was done, and that your son can keep on driving.

Simon

Posted by: Zed Victor One Fri, 30 May 2008 - 08:32
Post #263507

I'm glad you've got it over and done with and that you got an acceptable result

Posted by: Chas820 Fri, 30 May 2008 - 16:15
Post #263626

Every little helps

Posted by: sparkie Sun, 8 Jun 2008 - 08:21
Post #265154

ive been following this case too and must say im very pleased for you that some common sense has prevailed! congratulations and your son must be chuffed!

Posted by: afraid Sun, 8 Jun 2008 - 08:52
Post #265161

thankyou he is chuffed as he did very well on day defending himself, not something we want to repeat of course--this site helped so much

Posted by: afraid Thu, 12 Jun 2008 - 13:03
Post #266270

sorry to be back last thing!!! have just got sons licence back court sent off and code says sp30 i thought it might be a 10 or 20 sp code but definately written as 30, have told insurance company its sp30 as this is what it says should he doule check this is correct with dvla,, insurance not changed for this year many thanks